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Old 12-22-2008, 04:00 PM
LML
 
Location: Wisconsin
7,109 posts, read 8,097,509 times
Reputation: 5160

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You might want to read about Melissa Etheridge's experience with Rick Warren before you jump to conclusions.

I received a call from Pastor Rick, and before I could say anything, he told me what a fan he was. He had most of my albums from the very first one. What? This didn't sound like a gay hater, much less a preacher. He explained in very thoughtful words that as a Christian he believed in equal rights for everyone. He believed every loving relationship should have equal protection. He struggled with proposition 8 because he didn't want to see marriage redefined as anything other than between a man and a woman. He said he regretted his choice of words in his video message to his congregation about proposition 8 when he mentioned pedophiles and those who commit incest. He said that in no way, is that how he thought about gays. He invited me to his church, I invited him to my home to meet my wife and kids. He told me of his wife's struggle with breast cancer just a year before mine.
Melissa Etheridge: The Choice Is Ours Now

 
Old 12-22-2008, 04:04 PM
 
4,182 posts, read 5,786,339 times
Reputation: 1720
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
You present a story on the net and then someone replies to you and you turn around and question it. I was claiming to know of at least one person your claiming to know droves. Can't take what I said at face value because it devalues your "story".

Brain tumors aren't fun by the way but thanks for caring enough to question the "capacity"
There is reason for me to question your story about the so called atheist in his deathbed crying for god since you didn't preface your story with the circumstances in which you would have encountered such an atheist. Do you take care of dying people on a regular basis?

My post is based on my professional experience with people from all walks of life. The people who are most insistent on being rescued from death tend to be Christian fundamentalists. Not liberal Christians. Why is that? Why are fundies so afraid of an event that serves as their passage to eternity?

The fundies who are big on attacking evolution (which has been a foundational concept of modern medicine) are the ones who insist on receiving all the artificial life support that modern medicine provides. The fundies tell our staff to do everything possible to save their dying family member when all indications point to the futility of continuing care. I suppose they pray for miracles to happen and for the laws of physics to be suspended just for them.

The sheer arrogance of such unrealistic expectations is breathtaking. Think about it: the Christian fundie thinks he is so special and at the center of the universe that all the laws of physics (especially the 2nd law of thermodynamics which explains why death happens) will have to be suspended just for him.

Remember Terry Schiavo? Why did the fundies allow her to linger on when - if God really existed - her death would have been the quickest way for her to meet her maker?

I am not telling you to stop believing in your fables. You are free to do so in the privacy of your home, and as long as your fables don't find their way into social policy that impacts other people who don't share your views. That's exactly why people oppose Rick Warren's involvement in the Obama inaugural. He is a Christian fundie who uses his religious beliefs as a basis for denying others a right that he himself enjoys. He is using that incoherent fairy tale known as the Bible to piously discriminate against others.
 
Old 12-22-2008, 04:40 PM
 
29,739 posts, read 34,754,280 times
Reputation: 11627
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndfmnlf View Post
There is reason for me to question your story about the so called atheist in his deathbed crying for god since you didn't preface your story with the circumstances in which you would have encountered such an atheist. Do you take care of dying people on a regular basis?

My post is based on my professional experience with people from all walks of life. The people who are most insistent on being rescued from death tend to be Christian fundamentalists. Not liberal Christians. Why is that? Why are fundies so afraid of an event that serves as their passage to eternity?

The fundies who are big on attacking evolution (which has been a foundational concept of modern medicine) are the ones who insist on receiving all the artificial life support that modern medicine provides. The fundies tell our staff to do everything possible to save their dying family member when all indications point to the futility of continuing care. I suppose they pray for miracles to happen and for the laws of physics to be suspended just for them.

The sheer arrogance of such unrealistic expectations is breathtaking. Think about it: the Christian fundie thinks he is so special and at the center of the universe that all the laws of physics (especially the 2nd law of thermodynamics which explains why death happens) will have to be suspended just for him.

Remember Terry Schiavo? Why did the fundies allow her to linger on when - if God really existed - her death would have been the quickest way for her to meet her maker?

I am not telling you to stop believing in your fables. You are free to do so in the privacy of your home, and as long as your fables don't find their way into social policy that impacts other people who don't share your views. That's exactly why people oppose Rick Warren's involvement in the Obama inaugural. He is a Christian fundie who uses his religious beliefs as a basis for denying others a right that he himself enjoys. He is using that incoherent fairy tale known as the Bible to piously discriminate against others.
Nichole Nordeman Lyrics - What If?
But what if you're wrong?
What if there's more?
What if there's hope you never dreamed of hoping for?
What if you jump?
And just close your eyes?
What if the arms that catch you, catch you by surprise?
What if He's more than enough?
What if it's love?

Many of us have been caught in ways you can not believe. That is why we believe, we have let go of the branch and been caught.
 
Old 12-22-2008, 04:47 PM
 
29,739 posts, read 34,754,280 times
Reputation: 11627

YouTube - Nicole Nordeman - What If

The above video is presented for you to help you understand the paths walked in common by Obama and Warren. They are brothers with a common understanding and embrace of something special. Those of us who share that embrace understand why they will be united on January 20 in front of the nation and in full view of the world. It will be a statement not about Gay Rights or any other poltical topic. It will be a union of faith that transcends our differences and unites billions around the world. All we can do is ask you to listen and ponder the universal question. What if you're wrong?
 
Old 12-22-2008, 04:56 PM
 
29,739 posts, read 34,754,280 times
Reputation: 11627
My fellow posters understand that the moments of prayer offered by Pastor Warren on January 20 will be only one part of the massive prayer that day that will resonate throughout the land.

YouTube - American Prayer - Dave Stewart (Barack Obama Music Video)

Even you my fellow friends must agree that this is the prayer we all wanted and worked for. To realize it we need to unite and not continue our partisan and cultural wars.

Last edited by gallowsCalibrator; 12-23-2008 at 06:59 AM.. Reason: changed "bots" to "friends"
 
Old 12-22-2008, 04:58 PM
 
27,903 posts, read 34,337,554 times
Reputation: 4031
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndfmnlf View Post
There is reason for me to question your story about the so called atheist in his deathbed crying for god since you didn't preface your story with the circumstances in which you would have encountered such an atheist. Do you take care of dying people on a regular basis?

My post is based on my professional experience with people from all walks of life. The people who are most insistent on being rescued from death tend to be Christian fundamentalists. Not liberal Christians. Why is that? Why are fundies so afraid of an event that serves as their passage to eternity?

The fundies who are big on attacking evolution (which has been a foundational concept of modern medicine) are the ones who insist on receiving all the artificial life support that modern medicine provides. The fundies tell our staff to do everything possible to save their dying family member when all indications point to the futility of continuing care. I suppose they pray for miracles to happen and for the laws of physics to be suspended just for them.

The sheer arrogance of such unrealistic expectations is breathtaking. Think about it: the Christian fundie thinks he is so special and at the center of the universe that all the laws of physics (especially the 2nd law of thermodynamics which explains why death happens) will have to be suspended just for him.

Remember Terry Schiavo? Why did the fundies allow her to linger on when - if God really existed - her death would have been the quickest way for her to meet her maker?

I am not telling you to stop believing in your fables. You are free to do so in the privacy of your home, and as long as your fables don't find their way into social policy that impacts other people who don't share your views. That's exactly why people oppose Rick Warren's involvement in the Obama inaugural. He is a Christian fundie who uses his religious beliefs as a basis for denying others a right that he himself enjoys. He is using that incoherent fairy tale known as the Bible to piously discriminate against others.

The human anal cavity contains bacteria which is deadly. The act of homosexuality tears that soft flesh causing bleeding since through evolution homosexuals can not reproduce they will never form a defense mechanism to that problem. It's the equivalent to cutting your hands and running it through the dirt to see what happens. While humans have figured out way to get around that little problem via latex etc....the fact remains it's still unnatural and through evolution will never become natural. females barred also have the same problem of dying off after one generation due to natural selection. So as a person that opposes advocating those acts and calling it an equal action and the betterment of humanity now all the sudden must throw science, medicine, evolution and self preservation out the window to believe in it. The pastor Warren is right you have the right to practice that act he has the right to not accept the dangerous behavior as run of the mill perversion that no one else has the right to question.

For a long time no one questioned incest. Till the bloodlines were tainted with defects and hemophiliacs. Although I would argue incest is a far more dangerous act due to propagation asking someone who doesn't belive in self destructive behavior to suddenly accept it as normal behavior is borderline ridiculous although humanity has made much broader request throughout history.

Also in your response please break down how you claim death is explained in the 2nd law.
 
Old 12-22-2008, 05:06 PM
 
29,739 posts, read 34,754,280 times
Reputation: 11627
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
The human anal cavity contains bacteria which is deadly. The act of homosexuality tears that soft flesh causing bleeding since through evolution homosexuals can not reproduce they will never form a defense mechanism to that problem. It's the equivalent to cutting your hands and running it through the dirt to see what happens. While humans have figured out way to get around that little problem via latex etc....the fact remains it's still unnatural and through evolution will never become natural. females barred also have the same problem of dying off after one generation due to natural selection. So as a person that opposes advocating those acts and calling it an equal action and the betterment of humanity now all the sudden must throw science, medicine, evolution and self preservation out the window to believe in it. The pastor Warren is right you have the right to practice that act he has the right to not accept the dangerous behavior as run of the mill perversion that no one else has the right to question.

For a long time no one questioned incest. Till the bloodlines were tainted with defects and hemophiliacs. Although I would argue incest is a far more dangerous act due to propagation asking someone who doesn't belive in self destructive behavior to suddenly accept it as normal behavior is borderline ridiculous although humanity has made much broader request throughout history.

Also in your response please break down how you claim death is explained in the 2nd law.
A question for you to ponder. We have three islands lettered A, B and C.

On island A we put 100 female ladies who elect to enjoy a Gay life style.
On Island B we put 100 Gay men who elect to enjoy a Gay life style.
On Island C we put 50 men and 50 woman who elect to enjoy a Heterosexual life style.

In 100 years on Island A we have?
In 100 years on Island B we have?
In 100 years on Island C we have?

If it had been Adam and Steve what would have happened? If Darwinism is at all to be believed and survival of the most fit has a place in biology then what does that say about homosexuality in the natural order of things?
 
Old 12-22-2008, 05:14 PM
 
4,182 posts, read 5,786,339 times
Reputation: 1720
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post

YouTube - Nicole Nordeman - What If

The above video is presented for you to help you understand the paths walked in common by Obama and Warren. They are brothers with a common understanding and embrace of something special. Those of us who share that embrace understand why they will be united on January 20 in front of the nation and in full view of the world. It will be a statement not about Gay Rights or any other poltical topic. It will be a union of faith that transcends our differences and unites billions around the world. All we can do is ask you to listen and ponder the universal question. What if you're wrong?
And what if you're wrong too? What if Allah is the true God and Muhammad is the true prophet? Putting your bet in Jesus Christ in the belief that not believing will send you to hell is known as Pascal's wager. Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Blaise Pascal calculated that the risk of not believing far outweighs the risk of believing....if God does not exist and you believed in him, you have lost nothing except wasted your time at church. If God does exist and you did not believe in him, then you'd risk spending your eternity in hell. So the rational move is to force yourself to believe. The problem with Pascal's wager is that it assumes God is too stupid to see through your selfish motives in believing in him. It also does not address the possibility that a different God (for example, Allah) is the real supreme being, and you put your bet in the wrong deity.
 
Old 12-22-2008, 05:15 PM
 
27,903 posts, read 34,337,554 times
Reputation: 4031
They would swim across the canal (despite numerous deaths) to procreate to sustain themselves. While Island C would be over populated which causes a serious disease which wipes them out. Human ingenuity at it's best.

As long as they figure out genetics it's sustainable. Without that key factor all three islands die out.

Strangely enough though homosexual counts go back past 3000 years but still no evolutionary influence so to say. I think what it does is speak of the human mind and it's revolution. While I don't agree with homosexuality in terms of looking forward. I think each individual has the right to privacy. I also think marriage as a religious practice should be freed from the hand of gov. though so.... At that point churches if they wished could marry whoever they see fit. Human ingenuity would fill in the blanks through immigration and assimilation.
 
Old 12-22-2008, 05:25 PM
 
4,182 posts, read 5,786,339 times
Reputation: 1720
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
The human anal cavity contains bacteria which is deadly. The act of homosexuality tears that soft flesh causing bleeding since through evolution homosexuals can not reproduce they will never form a defense mechanism to that problem. It's the equivalent to cutting your hands and running it through the dirt to see what happens. While humans have figured out way to get around that little problem via latex etc....the fact remains it's still unnatural and through evolution will never become natural. females barred also have the same problem of dying off after one generation due to natural selection. So as a person that opposes advocating those acts and calling it an equal action and the betterment of humanity now all the sudden must throw science, medicine, evolution and self preservation out the window to believe in it. The pastor Warren is right you have the right to practice that act he has the right to not accept the dangerous behavior as run of the mill perversion that no one else has the right to question.

For a long time no one questioned incest. Till the bloodlines were tainted with defects and hemophiliacs. Although I would argue incest is a far more dangerous act due to propagation asking someone who doesn't belive in self destructive behavior to suddenly accept it as normal behavior is borderline ridiculous although humanity has made much broader request throughout history.

Also in your response please break down how you claim death is explained in the 2nd law.

So your opposition to gay marriage is because you oppose anal sex? Have you not heard of heterosexuals performing anal sex? So, are you also going to police heterosexual couples to prevent them from performing anal sex? And if you think the anal cavity is loaded with bacteria, what about the oral cavity? Do you really think the oral cavity is all that sterile? By your logic (i.e the only acceptable sexual act to you is that which is sterile and non traumatic), then not even oral and vaginal sex would pass muster.

If you don't know what the 2nd law of thermodynamics is all about (a topic taught in high school physics), then I'm afraid I can't help you there.
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