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Old 04-12-2009, 09:05 PM
 
69,372 posts, read 55,371,954 times
Reputation: 9358

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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
The "excellent points" are whining that one shouldn't be required to do the hard work of learning how one's govenment operates or of paying attention sufficiently to know what the words and actions flying by in a real-time news cycle might actually mean.
I find it ironic that you expect individuals to do "hard work" at learning how one's government works, but when it comes down to an individuals need for "hard work" to be personally responsible, you have excuse after excuse for failure..
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Old 04-13-2009, 04:45 AM
 
19,183 posts, read 28,336,193 times
Reputation: 4002
Quote:
Originally Posted by mary54mi View Post
Not One Person in Congress Read the 1,100 Pages You guys on this thread don't have a clue and will be stunned when we all get to pay this money back through much higher taxes.
Higher taxes would be a very useful thing at this point, but not for "paying back" any stimulus debt. We have never after all repaid our debt from the Civil War, from WWI, WWII, Vietnam, or the debt-ridden years of Ronald Reagan. We make the interest payments on these debts and when the notes come due, we issue new notes to obtain the funds to pay off the old ones. Governments are not like individuals. They can carry debt in perpetuity.

As for your citation...

The “Stimulus Package” with over 1,100 pages was handed to law makers at 11p.m. on Thursday night and Pelosi wanted their votes the next day, because she was leaving for Rome to consult with the Pope.

Pelosi left for Rome on Sunday, and the papal visit was a late addition to her schedule. The primary purpose of the visit was to meet with lead Italian legislators to discuss international economic issues in advance of the then upcoming G20 meetings.

Obama had promised at least 48 hours to read and understand the package bailout plan, and NOT one congressman has read the 1,100 pages, but with eyes closed, they voted for something they did not see, understand, comprehend, nor did they allow the voters to voice their opinions about something that will in-fact “change” our country into a socialist regime, not to mention...they just screwed-up the eVerify program!

Obama made no such promise. Your entirely misguided author refers to showboating by House Republicans via a Motion to Instruct Conferees that called for no vote on the floor prior to 48 hours after the Conferees Report was posted on the internet. That motion passed 403-0. Motions to Instruct are not binding on anyone. A Conference Report does not deal with an entire bill. It is the job of conferees only to find language that reconciles in those instances where the House and Senate versions of a bill differ. All that was new late Thursday was the formal language of those reconciliations. The "noboby read the bill" argument does not gain credibility through simple repetition. The bill was months in development and weeks in debate. Anyone who cared to had more than ample time to read everything in it.
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Old 04-13-2009, 06:30 AM
 
19,183 posts, read 28,336,193 times
Reputation: 4002
Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
The stimulus bill was released at 12 mid nite the night before and voted on at 9:00am the next day.
That would be the Conference Report, not the stimulus bill, the bulk of which had been finalized days earlier. The Conference Report was filed at 10:30 pm on Thursday and posted directly. The House meanwhile convened at 9:00 am on Friday. Following 90 minutes of debate, the vote on the Conference Report concluded at 2:30 that afternoon. Senate action followed at 5:30.

Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
It was not debated except for in goals ;not specifics. The democrats controlled the debate time and the time it went to the floor by limiting the debate.
Points of order were waived. No Republican monkey-wrenching via simple tactics of delay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
It was hundreds of pages long which is why even democrats didn't noitce the Dodd insertion because it was done after the few senators that drafted it had gone.
The amendment was readily apparent and plainly described. It drew no attention because it was entirely inconsequential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
Where have you been? You maybe getting the budget mixed up wirh the stimulus is my guess;if so thank god you weren;t voting on either.
No, we do have posters on CD who are apparently confused on that particular point, but you would be pointing a finger here in quite the wrong direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
But I agree with you why was the presidient and democratic congress in such a hurry?
Hurry? Despite the emergency nature of the bill, it was sent by the majority through full committee markup under regular order. It was only after the scope of Republican intent upon obstructionism became apparent that any shortcuts at all were taken. The original idea had been for the bill to be introduced on "Day 1" and completed by the end of January. It needlessly took two weeks longer than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
I think alot of democrtic snenator as witnessed in the committeee meeting on the budget didn't like the end result and were it left them hanging.The democrat leader of the budget committee even said he agreed that the senate is a place where things are debated and the tradition was ignored by the leadership.The house is another animal all together.
Many Democrats were indeed disappointed at the level of concessions that were made in Reid's office to secure the stimulus votes of Specter and the Maine ladies. There is no doubt of that at all. The budget, as I thought you had just pointed out, is an entirely different matter. As Chairman of the Budget Committee, Sen. Conrad has every right to put his imprint on the plan. It isn't as if the administration had not anticipated that, nor that any of its key proposals and objectives has not survived. The detailed budget will be forthcoming from the White House in a few weeks. It will be an interesting process between then and the Fall, but it is highly likely that Obama will end up with an overall package that he will be quite comfortable with.

Last edited by saganista; 04-13-2009 at 07:24 AM..
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Old 04-13-2009, 06:35 AM
 
Location: a nation with hope
13,153 posts, read 17,379,398 times
Reputation: 5025
[quote=saganista;8316701]

The "noboby read the bill" argument does not gain credibility through simple repetition. The bill was months in development and weeks in debate. Anyone who cared to had more than ample time to read everything in it.

Then, why didn't our esteemed leaders read it?

Obama had promised at least 48 hours to read and understand the package bailout plan, and NOT one congressman has read the 1,100 pages, but with eyes closed, they voted for something they did not see, understand, comprehend, nor did they allow the voters to voice their opinions about something that will in-fact “change” our country into a socialist regime, not to mention...they just screwed-up the eVerify program!

Obama made no such promise. Your entirely misguided author refers to showboating by House Republicans via a Motion to Instruct Conferees that called for no vote on the floor prior to 48 hours after the Conferees Report was posted on the internet. That motion passed 403-0. Motions to Instruct are not binding on anyone.QUOTE]

So much for transparency that Obama promised. Yes, he did promise. I heard him.
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Old 04-13-2009, 06:40 AM
 
19,183 posts, read 28,336,193 times
Reputation: 4002
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
I find it ironic that you expect individuals to do "hard work" at learning how one's government works, but when it comes down to an individuals need for "hard work" to be personally responsible, you have excuse after excuse for failure..
One of the things that I find interesting is that some people just make stuff up and expect others to buy it. If some of those people had done even a little of this not-actually-as-hard-as-all-that work we have been speaking of, they wouldn't have a need to resort to such hapless tactics to begin with. They would be in a position instead to discuss issues intelligently. Imagine that, if you can...
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Old 04-13-2009, 07:19 AM
 
19,183 posts, read 28,336,193 times
Reputation: 4002
Quote:
Originally Posted by southward bound View Post
Then, why didn't our esteemed leaders read it?
It isn't the custom for lawmakers to read bills. It isn't even the custom to vote on them, the great majority of bills passing under unanimous consent. There are 535 voting Members in the combined houses of Congress. Jointly, they have more than 20,000 very highly qualified staffers on hand. It is their job to read and write legislation. They develop the expertise that they then pass on to the Member they work for. It is that expertise that is important in voting, not how it is acquired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by southward bound View Post
So much for transparency that Obama promised. Yes, he did promise. I heard him.
No, you didn't, because he never said such a thing. The 48-hour promise is from a House Republican Motion to Instruct Conferees regarding votes on the stimulus bill. This is a legislative matter. The President is a member of the executive branch. He has no actual say in legislative matters. All that you could possibly have heard was Obama's intent to post non-emergency bills that arrived on his desk on the internet for five days before he signed them. That again is a completely different matter.
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Old 04-13-2009, 07:43 AM
 
Location: a nation with hope
13,153 posts, read 17,379,398 times
Reputation: 5025
Default Then, let's abolish Congress!

Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
It isn't the custom for lawmakers to read bills. It isn't even the custom to vote on them, the great majority of bills passing under unanimous consent. There are 535 voting Members in the combined houses of Congress. Jointly, they have more than 20,000 very highly qualified staffers on hand. It is their job to read and write legislation. They develop the expertise that they then pass on to the Member they work for. It is that expertise that is important in voting, not how it is acquired.
Then, we don't really need Congress, do we. We could do with the 20,000 very highly qualified staffers who read and write legislation. We could even cut that number by a couple thousand, probably.

At least they would know what's in the bills they pass.

And without a politically and selfishly driven Congress (most of which it is, you would have to agree), we'd probably have a cleaner, leaner government of the people and actually FOR the people.
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Old 04-13-2009, 08:33 AM
 
19,183 posts, read 28,336,193 times
Reputation: 4002
Quote:
Originally Posted by southward bound View Post
Then, we don't really need Congress, do we. We could do with the 20,000 very highly qualified staffers who read and write legislation. We could even cut that number by a couple thousand, probably.
Sure, any Congressional office could get by without an elected Member to head it up. Just like any corporation could gte by without a CEO, and any sports team without a head coach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by southward bound View Post
At least they would know what's in the bills they pass.
Something better than 90% of all legislation that gets passed is noncontroversial. Unless you were paying attention, you wouldn't know that a bill had even been introduced, much less passed. It's the other 10% or so that takes up everybody's time. What's important about that is that you know what you are doing, not what each word of the legislative language says. Staff does that part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by southward bound View Post
And without a politically and selfishly driven Congress (most of which it is, you would have to agree), we'd probably have a cleaner, leaner government of the people and actually FOR the people.
Politics is best played by politicians, and you don't get to the top in that field (or many others) without some sort of ego. These are simply facts of life. Our system of govenrment is meanwhile set up so that we might shield ourselves from the whims, vagaries, and vicissitudes of popular passions. Tip of the hat to the founders, there...
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Old 04-13-2009, 05:22 PM
 
Location: Illinois Delta
5,763 posts, read 4,345,051 times
Reputation: 2060
We even have C-SPAN so we can watch our representatives in action. BTW, excellent posts, succinctly put...thanks.
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Old 04-13-2009, 06:22 PM
 
69,372 posts, read 55,371,954 times
Reputation: 9358
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
One of the things that I find interesting is that some people just make stuff up and expect others to buy it. If some of those people had done even a little of this not-actually-as-hard-as-all-that work we have been speaking of, they wouldn't have a need to resort to such hapless tactics to begin with. They would be in a position instead to discuss issues intelligently. Imagine that, if you can...
Imagine my surprise at a liberal turning to personal attacks when I simply suggest that people work hard and be "personally responsible"..
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