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Old 05-09-2009, 09:35 PM
 
Location: The Planet Mars
2,150 posts, read 2,308,989 times
Reputation: 523

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
The problems that led to the economic meltdown were in place for a long time and warnings had been noted well before the Democrats took over Congress.

Ken
That's right - only an ideologue (or complete moron - like some posters I could name) would disagree with that...

And remember, DUBYA was in power with his veto pen, stopping most legislation the Democrats wanted to move forward...
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Old 05-09-2009, 09:45 PM
 
2,659 posts, read 2,577,071 times
Reputation: 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by bls5555 View Post
Why does President Obama get the credit now and not for the huge drop?
I realized that I didn't answer this, and I'm qualified.

I don't know if the president gets credit or not - the economy is complex.
I know I invested though after the election and I'm up (a minor amount).

This forum... well, maybe these thread titles will give hints as to why any obama supporter on this forum is happy the market is doing better:

Dow drops, Obama running out of people to blame
Economy successfully destroyed by Obama so its off to Europe for vacation
Obama and the plummeting Dow
Investors must have Z-E-R-O confidence in Obama's grand plans ~
USA: Headed towards absolute disaster!

The anti-obama squad doesn't get to blame him for the market, then limit the pro-obama team from crediting his policies. There is proof for neither as far as I know, so arguing who gets credit at this point is silly. I'm glad its doing better though.
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Old 05-09-2009, 10:03 PM
 
Location: Southeast
4,296 posts, read 6,271,651 times
Reputation: 1445
Here is another complication I put together of the employment rate from 1970-2009:



Once again going by history, we should see the unemployment rate come back down over the next couple years, assuming we have reached a peak. The real question is whether or not the so called 'stimulus' is going to cause a Reagan-esque boom or a major bust. The president's time to shine is during the recovery period.
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Old 05-09-2009, 10:06 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
19,872 posts, read 22,780,530 times
Reputation: 7186
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbob View Post
That's right - only an ideologue (or complete moron - like some posters I could name) would disagree with that...

And remember, DUBYA was in power with his veto pen, stopping most legislation the Democrats wanted to move forward...
Yup.
The fact of the matter is that the last Congress WAS almost a complete failure. There is no about that.
The only point of contention is WHY that Congress was a failure.
Right-wingers will of course blame the Democrats, but the fact of the matter is that BOTH sides are to blame to varying degrees. I certainly would not make the claim that the Democrats were any way, shape or form effective - but there are some distinct mitigating circumstances for that - mostly the facts that the Democratic margin of control was way to slim. It was very easy for the Republicans to stop pretty much anything thing they wanted to stop, They had enough votes to filibuster anything they wanted (which they did many times) and they had a Republican President who was more than willing to veto anything the Democrats managed to get passed in Congress (which he did many times).

The result was a logjam - a stalemate - a draw. Democrats had a majority, but not enough of a majority to get anything done.

All that changed in January, the logjam was broken with a clear Democratic majority in both Houses of Congress, and there's a new Democratic President - and one can see the result - lots and lots and lots of legislation has been passed.

Ken
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Old 05-09-2009, 10:15 PM
 
Location: New York, New York
4,861 posts, read 6,076,234 times
Reputation: 1019
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie117 View Post
Here is another complication I put together of the employment rate from 1970-2009:



Once again going by history, we should see the unemployment rate come back down over the next couple years, assuming we have reached a peak. The real question is whether or not the so called 'stimulus' is going to cause a Reagan-esque boom or a major bust. The president's time to shine is during the recovery period.
I hope that we actually address the systemic problem this time instead of creating another bubble. If we merely see another surge I don't think that is the kind of recovery that we need as a nation. We need to address the underlying problem. We need to address why do americans have to live on credit? Is it that we are "living beyond our means"? Or is it why can't a middle class income afford a middle class lifestyle? I happen to believe the latter but whatever the answer, the problem needs to be addressed if we are going to do more than put another band-aid on the problem. I happen to believe that is all we have done for the last 30 years.

Last edited by lamexican; 05-09-2009 at 11:39 PM..
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Old 05-10-2009, 04:28 AM
 
Location: The Planet Mars
2,150 posts, read 2,308,989 times
Reputation: 523
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
Yup.
The fact of the matter is that the last Congress WAS almost a complete failure. There is no about that.
The only point of contention is WHY that Congress was a failure.
Right-wingers will of course blame the Democrats, but the fact of the matter is that BOTH sides are to blame to varying degrees. I certainly would not make the claim that the Democrats were any way, shape or form effective - but there are some distinct mitigating circumstances for that - mostly the facts that the Democratic margin of control was way to slim. It was very easy for the Republicans to stop pretty much anything thing they wanted to stop, They had enough votes to filibuster anything they wanted (which they did many times) and they had a Republican President who was more than willing to veto anything the Democrats managed to get passed in Congress (which he did many times).

The result was a logjam - a stalemate - a draw. Democrats had a majority, but not enough of a majority to get anything done.

All that changed in January, the logjam was broken with a clear Democratic majority in both Houses of Congress, and there's a new Democratic President - and one can see the result - lots and lots and lots of legislation has been passed.

Ken
You are absolutely right - the only thing that kept the Democratic congresses of 2007 and 2008 from accomplishing much were the Republican fillibuster threat, and DUBYA's use of the veto...

Now that those 2 weapons have been neutralized - Democrats are moving forward aggressively with legislation..

And the Republicans have been reduced to the party of NO...
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Old 05-10-2009, 04:33 AM
 
Location: The Planet Mars
2,150 posts, read 2,308,989 times
Reputation: 523
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamexican View Post
I hope that we actually address the systemic problem this time instead of creating another bubble. If we merely see another surge I don't think that is the kind of recovery that we need as a nation. We need to address the underlying problem. We need to address why do americans have to live on credit? Is it that we are "living beyond our means"? Or is it why can't a middle class income afford a middle class lifestyle? I happen to believe the latter but whatever the answer, the problem needs to be addressed if we are going to do more than put another band-aid on the problem. I happen to believe that is all we have done for the last 30 years.
A lot of the overuse of credit can be explained by the pathetic growth in incomes for the middle class over the past 25 years... what people were not getting in pay increases was made up by home-equity loans and credit card usage.

Also, a good portion has to do with the 'instant gratification' trap that many have fallen into... they see something on tv or that their neighbor has - and they instantly want to have it too...
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:15 PM
 
34,990 posts, read 34,741,449 times
Reputation: 6163
Quote:
Originally Posted by compJockey View Post
I realized that I didn't answer this, and I'm qualified.

I don't know if the president gets credit or not - the economy is complex.
I know I invested though after the election and I'm up (a minor amount).

This forum... well, maybe these thread titles will give hints as to why any obama supporter on this forum is happy the market is doing better:

Dow drops, Obama running out of people to blame
Economy successfully destroyed by Obama so its off to Europe for vacation
Obama and the plummeting Dow
Investors must have Z-E-R-O confidence in Obama's grand plans ~
USA: Headed towards absolute disaster!

The anti-obama squad doesn't get to blame him for the market, then limit the pro-obama team from crediting his policies. There is proof for neither as far as I know, so arguing who gets credit at this point is silly. I'm glad its doing better though.
I think fixing the financials - "fix" in both the light and dark senses of the word - was the smartest possible thing to do.
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:33 PM
 
5,165 posts, read 5,325,673 times
Reputation: 1067
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
The problems that led to the economic meltdown were in place for a long time and warnings had been noted well before the Democrats took over Congress.

Ken

Yes like in 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999.

This economic setback crossed al party lines. There were many Democrats and Republicans responsible for the lunacy of the bubble economy. From the tech bubble in the 90s to the oil and real estate bubbles.
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Old 05-11-2009, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Southeast
4,296 posts, read 6,271,651 times
Reputation: 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleanhouse View Post
Yes like in 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999.

This economic setback crossed al party lines. There were many Democrats and Republicans responsible for the lunacy of the bubble economy. From the tech bubble in the 90s to the oil and real estate bubbles.
Actually the tech bubble was the 80s, dot com was the 90s, and housing was 00s. Not so sure about oil, are you talking 70s or 2005(ish)-2008?

Personally I do not believe bubble economies are beneficial at all, they work wonders until they burst, then all hell breaks loose. However, it is difficult to recover from a recession without a bubble. We have to decide whether to accept a fast growing economy and cyclic severe recession or a sluggish growing economy with mild recessions...
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