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Well, visiting a country only gives you a tourist's perspective, which is often positive. See the Japan thread for example. When people visit, they're often blown away, but when you live here for awhile, it's more love/hate, with one side dominating depending on the person. I remember a few people I met when I first arrived who claimed this was going to be their new home, but a few years later, and the attitude is more uncertain and 2 of them left. I admit I was open to the same thing. Could this awesome place be my new home? Not feeling that confident now, but the first year I would have still thought yes.
I think you have to live there to really know if you like it or not. Unless you're lucky and have the money to travel a lot. The winter may be a bit tough, and if you visit then you may think the country kind of sucks, but what about the rest of the year? This is true for many cities. New York City often gets more snow and cold weather than Sweden's major cities, it's just a bit closer to the equator so there is more sunlight in the winter time. Vancouver is very rainy 5 months straight in the winter, but is quite beautiful for 4-6 months. Japan has 2 rainy seasons in the spring and fall and its summers are pretty brutal, with weeks of 35C+ humid weather. You just have to accept the weather sucks in some way in most major livable cities.
I think your point about taxes is right on. Much of US taxes go to the military budget, corporate welfare and such and we see decaying infrastructure, poor public services, lack of public transportation, etc. so people in the US are skeptical of paying more taxes thinking, quite rightly, that the money isn't going to come back to help them and their communities. I think people in many other developed countries have the opposite attitude because they can see the benefit of the taxes they pay everyday.
If the US had all that corporate welfare, I wonder why we have amongst the highest coporate taxes in the world?
Having lived in both the US and Europe, I agree 100% with this. The Americans who disparage Europe and go on about how much better the US is because it has much lower taxes are full of sh*te as far as I am concerned. In Europe we actually have public services--notably, socialized or semi-socialized health care, and free or cheap higher education.
To the OP: As regards Sweden, I have heard a lot of good things about it. I was speaking with a colleague last week and he said you don't necessarily need Swedish to work over there, at least in the technology industry. With that said, we are talking about EU citizens. For Americans, I think you would need to learn Swedish. I also agree that the university route is your best bet, for all the reasons mentioned. It will give you the best opportunity to build a social network there. I would get started on the Swedish language pronto, though. You can do that from anywhere.
Actually, you have neither free healthcare nor free education. You just pay for them and ration them through the state, not the market. Europe has much to commend it, but it is not free, and in many cases is far worse than the US. I think Sweden does pretty well because they are full of well-educated and hardworking people who are willing to be taxed for what they see as a good return. They are also some of the best folks I have had the pleasure of knowing.
Actually, you have neither free healthcare nor free education. You just pay for them and ration them through the state, not the market. Europe has much to commend it, but it is not free, and in many cases is far worse than the US. I think Sweden does pretty well because they are full of well-educated and hardworking people who are willing to be taxed for what they see as a good return. They are also some of the best folks I have had the pleasure of knowing.
I didn't say we had free health care -- I said we had socialized health care. We also have socialized higher education. And I admitted (at least implicitly) that we pay higher taxes.
This is a matter of semantics: "free" vs. "socialized" in this context is what attorneys would call "a distinction without a differencce."
I didn't say we had free health care -- I said we had socialized health care. We also have socialized higher education. And I admitted (at least implicitly) that we pay higher taxes.
This is a matter of semantics: "free" vs. "socialized" in this context is what attorneys would call "a distinction without a differencce."
"and free or cheap higher education."
I know where you are coming from Dreaming, and I certainly understand it. The reality is that a lot of folks would prefer the government make their choices and allocate resources on their behalf. That is fine, and it certainly reflects Sweden's structure; it is not, however, come without costs, and is not a road a great many people would prefer to travel down--especially in the U.S.
Hi everyone!
I'm an American living in NYC, in my early twenties. I've been thinking seriously about moving out of the U.S. and becoming an expatriate. The culture in my country just isn't suiting me and hasn't for a long time. I'm particularly attracted to Sweden, so much that I've begun to learn the language (self-teaching and also taking classes). Plus it seems that my career industry (design) is far more appreciated there.
My question is, how hard would it be for me to find a job and build a new life? Is it hard for a foreigner to find work? People immigrate all the time--my own parents did--so it must be possible. I'm planning to go to grad school sometime in the future. Would it be ideal for me to make my entry as a student?
Sorry if these questions are a little vague. I'm especially interested in answers from people who live or have lived in Sweden, but also Americans who have moved to any other country. Thanks!
The only advice I have is to go for it-I have a feeling you'll be seeing a lot more American ex-pats before long. And you're right -people immigrate all the time.
I know where you are coming from Dreaming, and I certainly understand it. The reality is that a lot of folks would prefer the government make their choices and allocate resources on their behalf. That is fine, and it certainly reflects Sweden's structure; it is not, however, come without costs, and is not a road a great many people would prefer to travel down--especially in the U.S.
I follow US politics pretty closely, so I can understand why Americans would feel this way. I wouldn't want American politicians spending my tax dollars either.
This has little to do with handing over "freedom" to a higher authority, as though Europeans are children, however. Most Europeans don't value "individualism" in the same way that Americans do; It is not seen as a sign of weakness, immaturity, or independence to pay taxes to retain a social fabric, as it is in the main in America. In fact, most Europeans take it as a given that such social fabric is vital to our way of life.
And yes, it does come with a cost--there are pros and cons to every social model.
As for racism I can tell you that in Sweden and Norway you will NEVER be exposed to open racism. We keep voting for parties who take in lots of immigrants (Stockholm consists of 37,5% immigrants and Malmö of 40%. In comparison about 36% of NYCs population were born abroad). Obviously Americans are ethnically diverse themselves, so you'll still see more non-whites in NYC than in Sweden..
Also, being a black woman I suppose you have many black friends.. In Scandinavia, you should remember that the black people there are Africans.. So though it might feel natural to you to walk up to then and think you'll have more in common with them than in whites, this won't be the case. Surely, many blacks in Scandinavia were born here and have a very western mindset, but chances are you'll fit in better with whites.
Remember that immigrants in Sweden cause a lot of trouble.. They're extremely overrepresentated in crime statistics and many also live on welfare.. So naturally many swedes do not have too warm feelings for immigrants.. This said, Scandinavia is probably the most tolerant place in Europe and as long as you act properly race won't matter to most people be aware that being black you might be judged at first, but once they find out you're cool/American there won't be any problems!
EDIT: As for finding a job, the job market in Norway is much better and tons of swedes work here.. Swedes make out the second biggest group of immigrants in Norway also, in Norway we have higher standards of living and much prettier nature.. Other than that, the countries are pretty much exactly the same. That said, Stockholm is by far the best city in Scandinavia (and one of the best on the continent IMO) and Oslo can't compare. Also, sweden is bigger and more known so I guess it's a little cooler to come back to the US and say you've lived in Sweden than in Norway, but I'm not sure.
If Sweden is the country in your heart, then you should go there but if moving there proves to be very problematic, I'm quite sure Norway would be a safer choice. There's basically no difference between Norwegians and Swedes.. Oslo has about 27% immigrants and it's the fastest growing Scandinavian capital and one of the fastest growing cities in Europe. it grows only due to immigration (many more Norwegians move out of Oslo than to Oslo!). Bergen isn't quite as multicultural, but I had a party yesterday with guests from India, Somalia, Ghana, Sri Lanka, Mexico, Venezuela, Turkey, Serbia, Bosnia, Pakistan, Russia and Portugal.. In fact, I think there were very few ethnic Norwegians there, maybe one or two typical Scandinavian party haha.. personally I'm part Russian and my school 6 of the classes consist of ONLY foreigners. In many other classes foreigners make out the majority of the pupils. Also, 2 days ago I went with some friends to a mosque
Among the younger generations in Scandinavia you'll find tons of immigrants and young people are way more tolerant than older people. How old are you? The younger you are, the less problems you'll have finding friends Scandinavians might seem conservative at first, but once you get to know them I swear you will experience craziness at a new level especially if you go partying with them, something you're likely to do. Just remember to not challenge any of them to a drinking game, as you'll most probably end up losing
In other words, it'll be pretty much the same when it comes to races if you choose to go to Norway you're more likely to encounter open racism on a street in NYC than on a street in Scandinavia!
Last edited by City of Rain; 08-22-2010 at 05:32 AM..
Actually City of Rain, I have maybe 2 black friends (and one of them is half-white)...unfortunately too many black Americans follow stereotypes and have nothing in common with me. I wish I had many more black friends, but you can't pick your friends based on skin color alone. So having mostly white friends in Sweden would be nothing new, as long as they'd like to be friends with me! My parents are from Ghana so I consider myself to be an African too, although I was born in the U.S. It's very relieving to hear the Scandinavia is a tolerant region. It's sad that in this day and age one even has to inquire about that. I'm 23 years old, hopefully that's young enough!!
You've all been so helpful! I just signed up for language classes so that I can improve my Swedish. Maybe in a few years, I'd like to try living there for 1-3 months, just to check it out. Hopefully that's plausible, without having a job or anything yet.
Actually City of Rain, I have maybe 2 black friends (and one of them is half-white)...unfortunately too many black Americans follow stereotypes and have nothing in common with me. I wish I had many more black friends, but you can't pick your friends based on skin color alone. So having mostly white friends in Sweden would be nothing new, as long as they'd like to be friends with me! My parents are from Ghana so I consider myself to be an African too, although I was born in the U.S. It's very relieving to hear the Scandinavia is a tolerant region. It's sad that in this day and age one even has to inquire about that. I'm 23 years old, hopefully that's young enough!!
You've all been so helpful! I just signed up for language classes so that I can improve my Swedish. Maybe in a few years, I'd like to try living there for 1-3 months, just to check it out. Hopefully that's plausible, without having a job or anything yet.
You might be able to find a Swedish-speaking social group in your area on Meetup.com. I do think learning the language should be your number one priority right now.
I wanted to add that the Swedes I have worked with have been great people, without exception. I don't think racism will be a problem there. They are just really laid-back, tolerant, polite and lowkey people. I'm jealous.
I follow US politics pretty closely, so I can understand why Americans would feel this way. I wouldn't want American politicians spending my tax dollars either.
This has little to do with handing over "freedom" to a higher authority, as though Europeans are children, however. Most Europeans don't value "individualism" in the same way that Americans do; It is not seen as a sign of weakness, immaturity, or independence to pay taxes to retain a social fabric, as it is in the main in America. In fact, most Europeans take it as a given that such social fabric is vital to our way of life.
And yes, it does come with a cost--there are pros and cons to every social model.
Again, I see where you are coming from. I myself like the value that many Europeans place on enjoying life, instead of the rat race that exists here in many places.
It is hard to argue that one doesn't lose freedom, however, when one hands ever larger portions of one's wealth to the state. This is especially the case when those funds are used inefficiently and in contradiction to the values that many hold dear within the society. One problem with Americans' "diversity" is that it makes for large portions of the society that have no desire or inclination to live like other portions of it. I have not seen this be a very big problem in Sweden, as the society is pretty homogeneous in a political sense.
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