News, Spain's Tolerance of Gypsies: A Model for Europe? (crime rate, life, country)

[John1960]

Antonio Moreno lives on what is reputedly Madrid's most dangerous street, where dealers openly offer any type of drug around the clock. He owns a four-bedroom house with a pool; he works out of his own photo and video studio — and he's a Gypsy, one of the 40,000 inhabitants of an illegal settlement on the outskirts of the Spanish capital.

Read more: While France Deports Roma Gypsies, Spain Integrates Them - TIME

[Souliban]

Im Spaniard, Gypsies are here since XV century and the most of they still living apart of the society. The most of them are bad civitians, pretty often thieves,....If they are lucky and talented flamenco musicians, they can get money playing music, but if not, they just wanna work for nobody. They are gross, unpolite, agressive, racist, ,.....

We call them gitanos ( word derives from Egypcians-----Egipcios-Egiptanos-Gitanos-) Cause the Celtiberians(spaniards) believed they came from Egypt . They got the spanish guitar, and other spanish music influence, and they mixed it with their arab,persian and indians roots/influences, the result: Flamenco)

They live without obligations: They have free houses, and free taxes) why? the spanairds are afraid of them and they put them out of the cities, ,.....) The most of them are just a cancer for our society, believe me , i live with some families in my neighborhood. They try to cheat the spaniards always, just like the romanian gypsies , cause the spanairds in general are workers, peaceful, open, friendly,....And the gipsies try to pick our money and more,......


The gypsies: A truelly CANCER in Spain,....only in some cases,....sport, flamenco,.....they can integrated,....and In South places in Spain,...like Jerez de la Frontera.

Cheers from Spain

[Souliban]

I was talking about the "old-gypsies" . The new ones, the romanians, are even worst,...a truely nightmare,....

[noela]

Gypsies, meaning the ones that live the traditional way (I'm not using a racial label of any sort and I'm excluding all the gypsies who live "like the rest of us" -I realise this may sound totalitarian, but it's commonsensical-, whatever their individual customs), are very rarely integrated in Spanish society. Their traditions and ways of doing things are simply tolerated, and not without muffled controversy (and most of us -even those who fully support them- wouldn't like to live in a neighbourhood which had gypsies "living as such"), but there's usually a very uncomfortable relationship between them and their neighbours.

There's prejudice against them, of course, but this tension also rises because of high crime rates, because of how their women and children are submissive to the adult males (and the children aren't properly brought up), poor sanitary condicions surrounding them, and other issues that are at odds with real integration in a modernised democratic country. Hardly something the rest of Europe should desire to copy from us.

[Thomas R.]

Yeah the Basque exchange student we had had very little good to say of gypsies so I don't think the Spanish are particularly accepting.

And yeah the gypsies do have lots of problems, but we have ethic groups that have high crime rates or don't integrate well (The Sioux, Hasidic Jews, possibly some Central American immigrants) yet we'd generally feel bad talking about them the way he talked about gypsies. For that matter there are Romany/Gypsies in the US and we certainly don't act like Europeans I've seen on the subject. I think it's culture though, not race. This kid was actually against American racism, but said "with gypsies it's different, they really are scum." I think if a gypsy had a respectable job and assimilated he would have no longer seen him as "a gypsy" so not minded. In the US we almost seem to care more about race than culture.

[Tiger Beer]

Originally Posted by Thomas R.

Yeah the Basque exchange student we had had very little good to say of gypsies so I don't think the Spanish are particularly accepting.

And yeah the gypsies do have lots of problems, but we have ethic groups that have high crime rates or don't integrate well (The Sioux, Hasidic Jews, possibly some Central American immigrants) yet we'd generally feel bad talking about them the way he talked about gypsies. For that matter there are Romany/Gypsies in the US and we certainly don't act like Europeans I've seen on the subject. I think it's culture though, not race. This kid was actually against American racism, but said "with gypsies it's different, they really are scum." I think if a gypsy had a respectable job and assimilated he would have no longer seen him as "a gypsy" so not minded. In the US we almost seem to care more about race than culture.

Excellent points.

It is interesting, now that I think about it...in that we DO have gypsies in the States...but pretty much NEVER hear anything about them whatsoever, except that they exist.

I think I've seen documentaries on them....the ones living in the States. But fairly uneventful documentaries, as I can't for the life of me remember what they said about the ones in the States.

I did spend six months in Spain...and that kind of talk is COMMONPLACE though. Not just with gypsies either...but Moroccans as well.

[Manolón]

Thomas

There are integrated and affluent Gypsies in Spain, Catalan gypsies. They have a couple of neighbourhoods in Barcelona. They are well liked here.

Many Gypsies are hardworking people, they sell in markets, deal with junk, raise horses, etc.

But of course, then you have the criminal element, the Clans selling drugs, etc.

No, I think you are wrong. Gypsies never integrate in the "payo" (non-Gypsie) culture, they integrate others.

[kevxu]

Originally Posted by Tiger Beer

Excellent points.

It is interesting, now that I think about it...in that we DO have gypsies in the States...but pretty much NEVER hear anything about them whatsoever, except that they exist.

I think I've seen documentaries on them....the ones living in the States. But fairly uneventful documentaries, as I can't for the life of me remember what they said about the ones in the States.....

I couldn't find any figures for the gypsy population in the U.S. that looked reliable. These guesstimates seemed to put them at something like 200,000. A rather small figure given the total population and the great size of the U.S.

Gypsies did move into my small town in the 50's, and they were regarded with curiosity as our only impression was out of Hollywood films. They were interviewed by the local paper, I remember, and things started off well enough.

They rented a house on the edge of town....by end of a year, one family was several, the house and yard were a trash strewn encampment, they would not take away their garbage as was required by residents living outside the village, they did not send their kids to school, and - in short - by the time they left "gypsy" had become a totally negative reality and they were deeply disliked.

[majoun]

Originally Posted by kevxu

I couldn't find any figures for the gypsy population in the U.S. that looked reliable. These guesstimates seemed to put them at something like 200,000. A rather small figure given the total population and the great size of the U.S.

It's much larger than that.

That would be only the number of Americans who identify as Roma.

The number of Americans with some Roma ancestry such as myself is probably about 10 times that number. Remember that Roma ancestry was considered shameful - my grandmother certainly did. Mainly because those who came to America in the early 20th century often lived amongst others from their nations of origin (Hungary in the case of my family) who had very negative impressions of Roma. It was as acceptable to reveal oneself as being Roma in "mainstream white society" as it was to reveal one had black ancestors. While Roma in the USA were not persecuted on the level of Native Americans, blacks or Asians, there was discrimination and a definite stigma. There were two mid-20th century US celebrities who were part-Roma: Rita Hayworth and Yul Brynner. The ancestry of neither was well known to the public.


To this day many Americans of Rom descent do not admit it. There's no separate category for Rom on the US census. Most would be in the "white" category, a few are in the "Hispanic" category. The majority have fully assimilated into US society.

I would assume this is also true regarding Roma in Canada and Mexico.

Gypsies did move into my small town in the 50's, and they were regarded with curiosity as our only impression was out of Hollywood films. They were interviewed by the local paper, I remember, and things started off well enough.

They rented a house on the edge of town....by end of a year, one family was several, the house and yard were a trash strewn encampment, they would not take away their garbage as was required by residents living outside the village, they did not send their kids to school, and - in short - by the time they left "gypsy" had become a totally negative reality and they were deeply disliked.

Much like stereotypes that would be later be used regarding other groups in the US. (And yes there are Roma in the US like this.) Roma not having a strong civil rights movement like other groups have had have not been able to combat discrimination so it's easier to just "pass". While the Nazis genocided Roma like they did Jews, the holocaust of Roma is nowhere near as well known.

OTOH the report made at the Nuremberg Trials by the American judges (Robert Jackson, perhaps?) depicted Roma in a very sympathetic light and depicted Roma as merely wanting to adhere to ancient traditions and for that being despised by the Nazis such that Hitler sent them to concentration camps and a million died.

[Manolón]

Originally Posted by Thomas R.

Yeah the Basque exchange student we had had very little good to say of gypsies so I don't think the Spanish are particularly accepting.

And yeah the gypsies do have lots of problems, but we have ethic groups that have high crime rates or don't integrate well (The Sioux, Hasidic Jews, possibly some Central American immigrants) yet we'd generally feel bad talking about them the way he talked about gypsies. For that matter there are Romany/Gypsies in the US and we certainly don't act like Europeans I've seen on the subject. I think it's culture though, not race. This kid was actually against American racism, but said "with gypsies it's different, they really are scum." I think if a gypsy had a respectable job and assimilated he would have no longer seen him as "a gypsy" so not minded. In the US we almost seem to care more about race than culture.

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Thomas

I guess that people in Spain are fed up with Gypsies because generally they are a nuisance, when not right down dangerous.

Well, if Americans feel bad talking about certain minority you have there (whose name can't even be mentioned) that are WAY less assimilated and WAY MORE dangerous than Gypsies, it's because the US decided to hide the problem under tons of elusive and fake PC, but the problem is still there no matter how much paint and hypocresy you put on top of it.