Which European countries are declining fast? (dangerous, train, rich, expensive)

[FrankCostello]

Originally Posted by BaronOB

My choice are almost all East-European countries: most of young or well-educated people have already leaved them, no industry, very poor work and career opportunities. I think the US have more polish-born people as Poland itself. Romania and Bulgaria in EU, it is a big joke!

I think it's ridiculous to say that east European countries are declining when in fact most of them (in the EU) are experiencing higher than average growth. People who immigrated usually did so long time ago (when the situation was worse), but now that the countries have improved many of them are coming back. Also, if you look at the human development index, many eastern European countries have already moved to the "very high human development" category, Czech Republic being only two countries behind UK.

[ssiguy]

Sorry. I usually make a concerted effort to make sure I keep to the forums original intent.
I brought up the US because I see a direct analogy between it and Greece............huge debt, soaring deficits, political inertia, power heavily concentrated in the hand of a few, citizens who continually skirt their taxes whether by political power in the US or tax evasion in Greece and a populas that refuses to truly acknowledged the profound consequences of living beyond their means. They are also nations that have lived, artificially, off the largess of big brother which in Greece's situation is Brussels and in the US situation continually printing money that is losing it's value and reputation as the world's reserve currency.
I also brought up the US because the reality is that it is an EU country using the Euro and the Euro and US$ are the world's most influential currencies.

[Thomas R.]

I think of Eastern Europeans it varies. Going by polls I'd read Romanians are rather down on the state of their economy.

Greece, Ireland, and Portugal appear to be having major debt problems.

Greek, Portuguese, Irish Debt Seen Topping GDP This Year - Businessweek

In terms of population much of Eastern Europe is in decline. In particular Bulgaria, Montenegro, Serbia, Romania, Hungary, and several former Soviet Republics of Europe.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2002rank.html

[Manolón]

Originally Posted by chielgirl

So, the rest of the world is wrong?
Why is getting rid of populist leaders a good thing?
Isn't a state/country about it's people?

----------

The Spanish economy was doing very well when US Regulatory Agencies allowed the injection of toxic waste into the financial system, and Goldman Sachs "fixed" Greek economy.

The Spanish Financial system was not affected, but the lack of trust and the ominous warnings of crisis cut loans to zero, business failed due to decreased spending and the bulding industry crashed....and rating agencies tried to make a killing by devaluating Spanish sovereign debt, when Spanish banks are the safest ones in Europe and most of the Spanish debt is private.

But what was worse was the response of Zapatero, the socialist president. He just ignored the crisis until it was too late.

As to Spain not being competitive, problem here are politicians, lesgislators and the political organization developed after the death of Franco. Too much bureaucracy, too many levels of government, too many autonomous governments and yes, populist presidents that rely on the ignorance of a large percentage of the Spanish population.

The crisis will be very good for Spain. A leaner and sounder Spain will come out after the crisis, whenever that happens.

And please, don't compare Spain with Portugal and Greece, ni tan feos ni tan calvos.

[Boompa]

The Greeks are rioting because they don't want to give up
RETIREMENT at 53 on 80% of Salary
Six weeks paid Vacation
Government Medical Care

If their politicians pulled this off what is wrong with ours

[Manolón]

You can't live like a Swiss when you only produce carobs.

[Venezuelan]

Originally Posted by evissone

Europe seems to be diverging. As the earliest industralized countries, some have been in silence economic decline for decades.

Which countries are still considered wealthy and powerful, in terms of economic growth, technological advance, cultural influence, and which are becoming less and less significant on the world stage?

My perception is that Germany has been doing the best, leading Europe in most aspects. France is holding up pretty well too. The UK is kind of declining, but London is still unshakable.

On the other hand, Greece and Portual are fading rapidly. I don't remember last time these countries did anything significant to impact the rest of the world, except their financial mess. Italy and Spain are only slightly better, life quality is deteriorating as these countries don't seem to produce much real products or have any technological innovation any more. Last time I was in Italy, it didn't strike me as a wealthy and advanced country at all. My friend asked the question "why is Italy even considered as a "developed country" again?" Spain is even poorer with an unemployment rate of over 20%.

Not sure about the Netherlands, Austria, Scandinavian countries, but my guess is they are doing better than P-I-G-S.

The world is changing fast. Is it possible that in 50 years, some once rich European countries will cease to be considered as "developed" countries compared with the rest of the world, especially rising Asia? For example, Taiwan and South Korea are richer than many EU countries now. Coastal China also sees higher life quality than Portugal and Spain.

Spain poor?

The GDP per capita of Spain is over 30,000 dollars. (on par with United Kingdom). Spain is the 9th economy of the world. It is industrialized, and receive more tourists than the U.S. each year. France and Spain lead world tourism.

Italy poor?

Italy is a G8 country (8 most powerful economies). The country is heavily industrialized excluding the south, which is more about tourism there, and tourists go there and relax.

You do not need to have many fortune 500 companies for your country to be rich. Tourism produces more money than Microsoft/Google/Apple.

The only country that I see with a grey future in Europe is Finland, Nokia hired for the first time a non Finn CEO who is a Canadian former Microsoft employee, he cancelled the 2 best operating systems there (Symbian and Meego/Maemo) and is forcing Nokia to use Microsoft mobile as the new OS in Nokia phones and the BING search engine of Microsoft (instead of google). Nokia stocks have lost half its value and Nokia is the most important company of Finland. If Nokia goes bankrupt, Finland will be affected 20% of tax revenues in Finland are provided by Nokia.

Spain and italy have a quality of life superior to any American country (Excluding Canada).

[Avondrood]

Originally Posted by Venezuelan

Spain and italy have a quality of life superior to any American country (Excluding Canada).

Depends what part of the country you're in. If you're in Catalunya or in North Italy, then yeah, sure...But I wouldn't exactly say the same when you're in for example Calabria or Andalucia. Living standards there are not up to par with most of the States. There's a serious gap between north and south in these countries.

[Venezuelan]

Originally Posted by Avondrood

Depends what part of the country you're in. If you're in Catalunya or in North Italy, then yeah, sure...But I wouldn't exactly say the same when you're in for example Calabria or Andalucia. Living standards there are not up to par with most of the States. There's a serious gap between north and south in these countries.

The most prosperous region of Spain is the Basque country with a GDP per Capita being 40 percent higher than that of the European Union. Catalunya is also prosperous.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_Country_(autonomous_community)

Andalucians still have a quality of life superior to the majority of U.S. states. They also have a better safety net, walkable cities, social healthcare, and lower cost of living.

Minimum wage in FLA: $7.5 per hour= $60 per day = $300 Week = $1320 (22 working days per month)

$1320 Floridian minimum monthly salary = 931.7 Euros (Before taxes)


On the other hand,


Minimum monthly Salary in Andalucia= 641.4 Euros per month which equals 908.5 Dollars, but employers have to pay by law 14 months of salary in a year, so the average minimum monthly salary is (641.1 times 14) divided by 12, which equals 748,3 Euros (1060 US Dollars).

1060 USD Andalucian minimum monthly salary (before taxes).



Hidden taxes and benefits:

Floridian:

Must own a car, and that equals a 500$ monthly expense (gas, car payment, express way tolls, parking, maintenance oil change, tires)

Without a car you cannot live in Florida.

NO Universal Healthcare, so if you get sick, well.. just imagine... So a Floridian has to pay 100 dollars or more per month in medical insurance.

750$ = 1 bedroom apartment.

On the ther hand,

Andalucian:

A car is not a must have.

Universal healthcare, and more social benefits.

500 Euro = 3 bedroom apartment.


An Andalucian has a higher quality of life than a Floridian.


Also, only 0.8 percent of the Spanish population make minimum monthly salary.

On the other hand, a lot of Floridians make minimum or close to minimum wage. The GINI coefficient of the U.S. is behind Cameroon, and Spain is on par with European GINI coefficients. Gini coefficient measures the degree of inequality in the distribution of family income in a country.
Central Intelligence Agency Gini RANKING:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2172rank.html


Sweden: 23

Germany: 27

Ireland: 29.3

Spain: 32

Italy: 32

Canada: 32.1 (the most prosperous country of America)

....

....

....

Cameroon: 44.6

United States: 45

Jamaica: 45.5


The income distribution in Spain, Italy, and Europe in general is very good, the best in the world.

In the U.S. you are rich or poor, with a huge gap between them. On 1 side you have Bill gates, Oprah, the Facebook guy, and the Google guys; inbetween you have a middle class with no universal healthcare and car dependency, and on the other side you have a struggling class of citizens making minimum wage and close to minimum wage working 2 jobs.


In Andalucia you only need 1 job. In the U.S. you need 2 jobs.

Quality of life is a lot higher in Spain, even in Andalucia, which is by the way a very nice place to live in.

[other99]

Well Spain unemployment rate is highest in the EU. The unemployment rate is 21%.

Spain unemployment, inflation rise

At least 40% of the people that are unemployed are young people there. The Socialist government has had to have spending cuts due to the huge debts it currently has. However Spain unlike Portugal has rejected the need for an EU bailout in the time being.

So far three EU countries have asked for an EU bailout. They are Portugal, Greece and Ireland. So far the bailouts have not improved the situation in Greece or Ireland and increased their level of debts. Portugal not so long ago applied for an bailout, but Greece was the first and that was an year ago, in November it was Ireland, however recently it has been Portugal.