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View Poll Results: Romance or Germanic Europe?
Romance 128 55.90%
Germanic 101 44.10%
Voters: 229. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-14-2012, 06:42 AM
 
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Climate only plays a role in the very long run. It takes thousands of years for genetics to reflect such things. If you take a Swedish community and transplant them to Mali, it will take thousands of years for them to turn genetically darker. Tanning is not genetic. And if they don't spend much time outside, they may never loose their nordic looks at all. There are Berber peoples in extremely sunny Northern Africa that have mostly light eyes and in some cases red or blond hair. And they have not migrated there recently, but instead been living there for thousands of years.

According to your map, Ireland has as little irradiation as the Netherlands, still many Irish are way darker than the Dutch. 2 or 6 degrees doesn't make much of a difference, either. People have worn clothes for thousands of years now...
Since you mention Munich, it is colder than Cologne, but still people there on average don't look as Germanic as people in warmer Cologne do. That kind of contradicts your climate theory.

Migration and mixing, be it voluntary or not, is the key here, especially with a historically messy continent such as Europe.


Not all countries are equallfy artificial. Japan is a much more natural country than Germany or France or any other revolving door country, let alone immigrant country such as the US. Iceland is a very natural country in terms of ethnicity, and a very Germanic one at that. African countries are very artificial countries, often comprising lots of ethnic groups and languages, often against people's will.

Actually, I do think that Germanic people were originally the Nordic type. And where they mixed with Slavic and Celtic people, their looks did not change much as those had by and large similar looks. So, I do think there is a typical Germanic, or as I said earlier, Germanic-Celtic-Slavic appearance. But they mixed with all kinds of other people in the course of history. After all some Germanic regions were occupied by Romans for quite some time, there were Turks and what not, you can bet there was mixing there as well.

I can NOT confirm that Germanic people originally did not all show the same physical appearance. Nobody really knows as nobody knows who is Germanic and who is not, there is no Germanic gene. Many people simply apply linguistic boundaries, which in my view makes no sense. English for instance is a Germanic language, still only about a quarter of its vocabulary is Germanic, the rest comes from Latin, Greek, French, etc. Likewise German has a high percentage of words of Latin and other non-Germanic origin.

Looking Germanic still implies blond hair and light eyes. Whether that is still justified or not given all the migration and mixing is another issue.
I am not complaining about anything. I don't really care what others expect Germans or Germanic people to look like.

It's way more than just a buffer zone, it's a huge transition zone as culture is fluent and way more than just language. Large parts of what is now Germany were Roman territory, after all there were clashes between Romans and Germanic people in what is now Northern Germany.
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Old 03-14-2012, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Near Tours, France about 47°10'N 0°25'E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Climate only plays a role in the very long run. It takes thousands of years for genetics to reflect such things. If you take a Swedish community and transplant them to Mali, it will take thousands of years for them to turn genetically darker. Tanning is not genetic. And if they don't spend much time outside, they may never loose their nordic looks at all. There are Berber peoples in extremely sunny Northern Africa that have mostly light eyes and in some cases red or blond hair. And they have not migrated there recently, but instead been living there for thousands of years.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GhV7vZ-zk_...ous-people.png

How do you explain that map?
Indians that populated the Americas come from the same plac(Siberia), coming from bering, about 40 000 years ago.
The Americas are among the major continents, the ones with the lowest genetic diversity. It doesn't help that this quite recent migration from Siberia have now created a diversity of skin colors that follows the same patterns than in the old world: the closer to the equator, the darker skin. Obviously the ancestors of those dark-skinned native Americans (central America, northern south-America) had light skin as poeople in north-east Asia and northern north America have. Genetics are a evoluating thing.
The same way, in Europe, once a time all Europeans were from the middle east, form similar genetic population. The population have diverges in adaptation to their new environnement. Blond-haired is much less adaptated in southern Europe where the summer sun is more burning than in the north. It is not surprising that the natural mutation towards lighter features were les adaptated around the mediterranean than up in the north. (Genetic mutations towards blondism can happened in all human populations; but was more a problem more near the equator, so the people who had it tended to have serious viability problems, and tend to not spread their genes. We can also had in many population the negative image that is associated with depigmentation)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
According to your map, Ireland has as little irradiation as the Netherlands, still many Irish are way darker than the Dutch. 2 or 6 degrees doesn't make much of a difference, either. People have worn clothes for thousands of years now...
Since you mention Munich, it is colder than Cologne, but still people there on average don't look as Germanic as people in warmer Cologne do. That kind of contradicts your climate theory.Migration and mixing, be it voluntary or not, is the key here, especially with a historically messy continent such as Europe.
The little variations "local" variation (at global scale) are obviously linked to more recent migrations.
variation don't invalidate a trend at global scale.
Once again, as I already have sait ten times; The fact that Northern France (despite being at the same latitudes as the southermost parts of Germany); Has long been part of an empire (Roman empire), then a nation (France), geographically connected to the Mediterranean (southern Europe) and not to the Baltics/scandinavia(northern Europe) did recieved much fewer genetic apports from Northern parts of Europe, contrady to what Germany or Netherlands did. This is the effect of the history, dating back to about 200 years. That why we are or a more southern-European type than Germanic countries are; and that is why we have developped a language and culture whose roots is from the Mediterranean area and nto from the Baltic sea. Contrary to what happened in Germany.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Not all countries are equallfy artificial. Japan is a much more natural country than Germany or France or any other revolving door country, let alone immigrant country such as the US. Iceland is a very natural country in terms of ethnicity, and a very Germanic one at that. African countries are very artificial countries, often comprising lots of ethnic groups and languages, often against people's will.
Being an island doesn't make a country more "natural". The exemple you give goes in the other side: Iceland, despite being an island is culturally and genetically linked with the outside world... Especially to Scandinavia, even politically... Actually a lot of islands are genetically, culturally and often politically linked to a "motherland"... Taiwan, Canarias, Madere, etc.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Actually, I do think that Germanic people were originally the Nordic type. And where they mixed with Slavic and Celtic people, their looks did not change much as those had by and large similar looks. So, I do think there is a typical Germanic, or as I said earlier, Germanic-Celtic-Slavic appearance. But they mixed with all kinds of other people in the course of history. After all some Germanic regions were occupied by Romans for quite some time, there were Turks and what not, you can bet there was mixing there as well.
It is obviously highly probable that the original Germanic people were majoritary of a "northern European type", since they precisely come from northern Europe!... But the reverse can't be true; it is not because one person has a "northern European look" that he/she is a Germanic or not ever a Germanic-descent person... Once again. Maybe you will finish to understand this image: It is not because Chinese people are majoritary of a east Asian look, that everyone with a east Asian look is Chinese or Chinese-descent... Do you understand your misconception?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Nobody really knows as nobody knows who is Germanic and who is not, there is no Germanic gene.
Is Germanic someones who is of a country whose culture derived from Germanic-speaking areas of Europe.
I'm glad you said that there are no "Germanic genes"! At least


Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Many people simply apply linguistic boundaries, which in my view makes no sense.
What makes a Polish a slavic and not a Germanic is only language (and the culture carried by the language), unless you can proove that their is something as a "Slavic gene" (you finally recognise that their are not "germanic genes", so it will not be difficult for you now...)



English for instance is a Germanic language, still only about a quarter of its vocabulary is Germanic, the rest comes from Latin, Greek, French, etc. Likewise German has a high percentage of words of Latin and other non-Germanic origin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Looking Germanic still implies blond hair and light eyes. Whether that is still justified or not given all the migration and mixing is another issue.
if you want to associate the adjective "Germanic" with a specific look at all price, you can. But once, teh reverse can't be true: you can't say that someone is Germanic because he is blond-haired, not more you can say that someone is Chinese because he has slanted eyes...
But you are free to stay ingnorant and thinking that having slanted eyes makes one person being Chinese; the same way you are free to believe that having blond-Hair makes you Germanic...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
I am not complaining about anything. I don't really care what others expect Germans or Germanic people to look like.
It is not what you said in your previous post, in which you considered sad that people expect Germans, (a germanic people), to have a Northern European look...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
It's way more than just a buffer zone, it's a huge transition zone as culture is fluent and way more than just language. Large parts of what is now Germany were Roman territory, after all there were clashes between Romans and Germanic people in what is now Northern Germany.
The areas between the Rhine and the actual Germanic/Romance border have been largely culturally Germanized since the fall of the Roman empire; and probably even during the last centuries of it. There is not much Romance culture still there now apart some beautiful ruins; all the Romance culture have been changed to a Germanic one.
The Romans had clashes even in the middle east or North Africa... it doesn't help those area have now lost their Romance cultural herency to have an Arabic one instead. History changes the peoples and their cultures.
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:09 AM
 
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Your analogy is flawed as China/Chinese refers to a nation, while Germanic applies not only to Germans. So, if someone looks like a Chinese, they probably are ethnically Han, whether they live in China or Brazil or Belgium. But not all Chinese look like Han. Also because of the huge size of the country which includes various regions and provinces.

There is lots of Mediterranean/Latin or whatever you want to call it culture left in Germany and most of Europe actually. The castles are usually not Roman by the way. Wine growing for instance is big in Germany and a Roman legacy. The German language has not changed the underlying culture much. Back when the Germanic people moved in from the North, they found superior civilization, thus they adopted much of it.

Name cultural aspects that you think you find in France, but not in Germany, and that are of Roman origin. I do think there are national mentalities, but then again, the Romans themselves were kind of Prussian in their thinking. And the modern French mentality is much closer to the German one than to the, say, Spanish or Portuguese one. That's why they are at a similar level of sophistication, unlike Latin countries.

Language is just one of many cultural aspects and since one can say basically everything in any language culture is not really dependent on language, especially within big regions where people speak closely related languages, such as Indo-European ones within Europe. If the French spoke Chinese, that might lead to a greater cultural distance, but not necessarily so. After all there are translators and interpreters.

Big parts of France are not connected to the Mediterranean at all, at least not more so than other parts of Central Europe. And France has also had ties to Nordic people via Britian, Belgium and the Netherlands. France today is more of an Atlantic and even central European than a Mediterranean country. I find it remarkably close to Germany in terms of culture.

Really, I see no point in this endless discussion. Continue to believe what you want, and I will continue to have my very different view of France and what Germanic means. You can write as much as you want, I have my views based on experience and won't change them.
I guess anyone traveling all over Europe will understand and get a feeling for the differences and similarities.
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Old 03-14-2012, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Purgatory
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You guys certainly write a lot on this subject. Very interesting stuff...keep it up.

The Haplogroup map is a good map to look at though. While it only tells part of a story, it shows how Europe has been impacted by various migrations over the last couple of thousand years (and maybe beyond).

The UK is an interesting subject for me, not just because I'm from there. Genetically, it seems that England at least is predominantly Germanic, whether from invading Saxon or Norse tribes. There are conflicting stories as to how many of the native British at the time were either wiped out or pushed westwards. The old English language was so widespread by the time the Normans invaded that I somehow doubt that England back than was a nation of predominantly native people ruled by just a few Saxon or Norse overlords. This is why so much genetic evidence shows great similarities between England specifically and countries like the Netherlands.

Do we assume though that blonde haired and blue eyed Brits are distantly of Germanic origin? That's a tough question that no one can really prove. Our "blonde" count is only rivalled by Scandinavian countries. I guess there has to be something in that?

As Neuling mentioned, it's really climate over a period of thousands of years that shapes skin colour, hair colour and texture and eye colour. If the population of Sweden were transplanted to Venezuela, they would definitely evolve with darker skin & hair, but this would take thousands of years. On another note, this is why I think judging someone based on skin colour is ridiculous.
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Old 03-14-2012, 11:49 AM
 
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Some interesting data and a nice map:
European Y-DNA haplogroups frequencies by region - Eupedia

Striking differences between Portugal and Spain there.
Also between west and south on the one hand and east and north Germany on the other. There is like a Slavic curtain running through central Europe.
Red seems to indicate Celtic ancestry.
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Old 03-14-2012, 11:52 AM
 
Location: Near Tours, France about 47°10'N 0°25'E
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I'll try to be bref to end definitly that meaningless discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Your analogy is flawed as China/Chinese refers to a nation, while Germanic applies not only to Germans.
in both cases in applies in groups that are not defined by a genetic unity but by a social aspect (germanic language in the case of Germanic peoples or being part of the political entity called "China".
The fact that in each case, one could be able to define a general average "look", just doesn't mean that having this look is being part of this supposed ethnic-group.
Once again I'll reapeat what I said: it is not because one person has a mediterranean look that he/she is "latin". the fact that statistically most latin-Europeans tend towards more mediterranean-loooking than nordic ones doesn't means that the reverse is true. Greeks, Peoples of Balkans, etc... Usually show mediterranean looks but have nothing to see with a "latin ethnicity". The same way Nordic-looking people from Slavic countries are not at all Germanic.
You just can't reverse an affirmation, and still be true.

All Dolphins live in the sea doesn't means that all that livein the sea is a Dolphin... Understand?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
There is lots of Mediterranean/Latin or whatever you want to call it culture left in Germany and most of Europe actually. The castles are usually not Roman by the way. Wine growing for instance is big in Germany and a Roman legacy. The German language has not changed the underlying culture much. Back when the Germanic people moved in from the North, they found superior civilization, thus they adopted much of it.
Fortunally that cultures and peoples are not living on their own cultural islands completly cutted from influences of other cultures. There are of course some latin influences in German culture; the same way there are some Arabo-muslism influences in southern Spanish or Portuguese culture, or French influences in Algeria... etc.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Name cultural aspects that you think you find in France, but not in Germany, and that are of Roman origin.
Language.
Almost all aspects of typically french culture are of Roman origin.
That some of them can be found in Germany is not a surprise. But they will in a much leasser extend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
I do think there are national mentalities,
I do not think about national "mentalities". this changes too much with time and with individuals (like "how you look"). Cultural identity can only being defined on objective aspects such as language, dominant religious system and herency; but not on "mentalities"... What is called "mentalities" is usually stereotypes. You can't define an identity on a stereotype (it doesn't seem to bother you that much).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Big parts of France are not connected to the Mediterranean at all, at least not more so than other parts of Central Europe.
All parts of France are more connected to the mediterranean than any part of "central Europe", simply because the whole country IS bordering the mediterranean. Contrary to their neighboring German regions, the areas of north-east of France are part of a political entity that opens on the mediterranean, since more than 2000 years. While Baden-Wurtenberg or Bavaria are part of a cultural area that spans to the Baltic sea, and who find its cultural Germanic roots up there... Don't also forget, that outside of borders and cultures, also geography connects northern France with its southern mediterranean part without any obstacle: we call that the "Sillon Rodanien" (Saone+Rhone plains). Contrary to the German-speaking part of Europe, which is completly cutted from the mediterranean by the Alps.. No part of France never has such an obstacle to join the Med. From German-speaking Europe, to have contact with the Mediterranean you either have to cross the Alps or to Cross France. Crossing France is now very easy for the millions of northern Europeans who go to our beaches, but that was not the case in the past.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
And the modern French mentality is much closer to the German one than to the, say, Spanish or Portuguese one. That's why they are at a similar level of sophistication, unlike Latin countries.
France can't be "unlike latin countries" since it IS a latin country. Appart of this I completly disagree with what you said. I fond the stereotypicall way of acting (so-called "mentality") to be very distant from the stereotypically "German way". Probably the total opposite actually.
As Cocteau said: 'French people we are just Italians in a bad mood"... this is pretty true! Especially concerning Parisians!

To end this discussion, Some fun videos about german, or french vs germanic stereotypes


Cliché ! english version - YouTube

Opel Corsa ARPP - YouTube

La Bise en France - YouTube

HSBC's ad --Smashed car - YouTube


Place de l'Étoile - Paris - YouTube

Crazy Paris Traffic - YouTube
You'll hardly see this perfectly normal french driving in Germany


L'art de la bise - YouTube
Germanics can't kiss...

Karambolage - Émission du 04 mars 2012 - videos.arte.tv (http://videos.arte.tv/fr/videos/karambolage_emission_du_04_mars_2012-6442424.html - broken link)

even Nutella is different!*

Nutella - YouTube

The cool northern Europe vs mediterran France...
Lien CJoint.com 3CoqDGn93XQ

Good bye, see you on another topic

Last edited by french user; 03-14-2012 at 12:07 PM..
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Old 03-14-2012, 12:13 PM
 
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Chinese refers to nationality, Germanic not, thus your analogy doesn't make sense. That is all I am saying. The analogy would be between Han and Germanics, as that is regardless of location or naturalization.

Again, language to me is just a superficial aspect. You didn't name any specific cultural differences between France and Germany that can be traced back to the Romans.

No, actually I think national and even more so regional mentalities are quite stable because thinking is automatically inherited in an abstract, social way, simply by emulating and understanding adults when one is still a child. Stereotypes might not be pleasant for some, but I think most of them are there for a reason. You know what they say, exceptions confirm the rule

And with big, heterogeneous countries such as Germany there are regional mentalities (which is one reason why there are certain resentments for instance between Bavarians and Hanseatic Germans, but even between south and north Bavarians).

I don't share your views on France as a Mediterranean country at all. The northern half of France feels as little Mediterranean as the Netherlands. Nor do Bavarians feel any connection to the Baltic Sea and its people just because the northernmost part of Germany borders the Baltic Sea. Those are really odd views. Do Floridians feel a connection to the Pacific just because the US has the West Coast?

Sorry, can't watch all those videos because of my slow Internet access :P
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Old 03-14-2012, 03:31 PM
 
Location: France
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Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Sorry, can't watch all those videos because of my slow Internet access :P
Romance Europe...
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Old 03-14-2012, 03:45 PM
 
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I'll try to be bref
failed
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Old 03-14-2012, 03:58 PM
 
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I live in Quebec, the central part just about halfway between Quebec City and Montreal. In that area folks can trace back their ancestry to France at close to 100 %, they have family names to match and those originate from all over France_not just the northern half.

I'd say a good 10% totally have the nordic/scandinavian look, 10% could easily pass as Italian/mediterranean....the rest come in all shades in between.

Its just like Neuling has been saying all along.
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