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Very few blond girls are actually "true blonds" in France. Most of blond french women are from dark brown to light brown, but blond are quite rare.
I know that much - that's the impression I've got overall.
( I used to order clothing from a French catalog on a regular basis as well and I took note how the French model girls looked. The majority were with dark brown to light brown hair; if blond, then colored for the most part; don't remember any true blonds, really. But I like their look anyways - they looked like real people, not mannequins.) So no, I never thought of French women as "blond," blond French girls are a rarity in my understanding.
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Some people in the world get the idea that french people were suppose to look "nordic" because of the french actresses of the 1960's such as Brigitte Bardot, or Catherine Deneuve, who were obviously fake blondes.
To me someone like Delon was more representive of "French look", (or Sophie Marceau, or Isebelle Adjani.)
I always knew that Deneuve was not "real blond" but that Brigitte Bardot is not blond - that's news for me. I should have noticed earlier, but she comes across as such a "blond type," lol.
So no, I never thought that French looked Nordic - not at all, I knew better, being around them for a while.
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To know how blondism is really frequent in France we should look at men. Blond-hair men are something like less than 10%.
Depardieu is probably the only one that comes to mind...
( But then again he doesn't look like typical Frenchman at all...)
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But of course it depends how we define "blond"... Most of those i call "blond" mught be considered dark brown following Scandinavian references.
( Although when we look at yet another personality in this movie, ( kid's father,) he definitely looks very German, lol)
So let's safely assume that certain part of French do share that common look with Germans, but for the most part - no. Definitely not.
Visigoths and Suevians were 200.000 to 250.000 and they arrived to Hispania, that had from 6.000.000 to 8.000.000 inhabitants. Their influence was minimal. Most blonde people you find in Galicia and Northern Portugal are descendants of the large Brition settlement of the fourth century, Britons fleeing from Anglo Saxons.
Visigoths were culturally Germanic, but most were Sarmatians. They did not have a distinctive look from your regular Hispano-Roman. Alans, another wave of invaders, were mongoloids.
German settlers came after the reconquest.
Huh?
Visigoths are Germanic, Sarmatians are Iranic, (and so are Alans by the way...)
Location: Near Tours, France about 47°10'N 0°25'E
2,825 posts, read 5,261,618 times
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Originally Posted by jonsereed
I live in Quebec, the central part just about halfway between Quebec City and Montreal. In that area folks can trace back their ancestry to France at close to 100 %, they have family names to match and those originate from all over France_not just the northern half.
I'd say a good 10% totally have the nordic/scandinavian look, 10% could easily pass as Italian/mediterranean....the rest come in all shades in between.
Its just like Neuling has been saying all along.
I've lived in Quebec. For what I have observed the majority of the population seem to show noticeably more nordic features than the French average. This is not really surprinsing when we know that there were only about 7000 original french settler that emigrated to new France; with two major origins: Normandie/Picardie(north) and Poitou/Charentes (central-west). Very few people were from southern regions, such as Mid-Pyrennes, Languedoc, Provence or Corsica.
In my observations, and following my references (the limits where you draw the distinctions are subjective/relative and so hard to trace) I'll that in France I'll tend to classify how population looks, so I'll give picture of what I considere:
Location: Near Tours, France about 47°10'N 0°25'E
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Originally Posted by erasure
I know that much - that's the impression I've got overall.
( I used to order clothing from a French catalog on a regular basis as well and I took note how the French model girls looked. The majority were with dark brown to light brown hair; if blond, then colored for the most part; don't remember any true blonds, really. But I like their look anyways - they looked like real people, not mannequins.) So no, I never thought of French women as "blond," blond French girls are a rarity in my understanding.
To me someone like Delon was more representive of "French look", (or Sophie Marceau, or Isebelle Adjani.)
I always knew that Deneuve was not "real blond" but that Brigitte Bardot is not blond - that's news for me. I should have noticed earlier, but she comes across as such a "blond type," lol.
So no, I never thought that French looked Nordic - not at all, I knew better, being around them for a while.
Depardieu is probably the only one that comes to mind...
( But then again he doesn't look like typical Frenchman at all...)
( Although when we look at yet another personality in this movie, ( kid's father,) he definitely looks very German, lol)
So let's safely assume that certain part of French do share that common look with Germans, but for the most part - no. Definitely not.
Pierre Richard looks quite unusally tall/blond/blue eyed among most french average people. He is from a family of Valenciennes, a city just a few kilometers of the Belgian border http://valenciennes.aggloannuaire.co...lenciennes.png
This part of France used to be part of the low countries; and was also in a more distant past, part of the "Frankish homeland".
Concerning Alain Delon or Sophie Marceau, I agree they would probably be a sort of "typical archetypal french look" (concerning the phenotypes, most people are obviously much less beautiful!).
I don't know how this map has been produced; if it has been done on serious scientific datas; but what I could say is that it completly fits my observations in my numerous trips. http://cjoint.com/data3/3Cokeo1pw7A.htm
concerning the number of "light looks" (blond+light brown) gives a number of 37% for France. It would be somthing like 10% blond/27% light brown following my observation)
As expected this number is much higher in Germanic countries, and makes the majority; in Germany: 66%, in England 56%, in Netherlands 66%, in Denmark 68%.
As expected, this number is as much high (or even more in some cases) in eastern Baltic countries that are not and never have been Germanic: 70% in Estonia, 80% in Finland, etc...
As expected, the only french region that has a light-hair majority is Normandy; and as I expected the greater south-west of France has the same level that the majority of the Iberian peninsula.
As Expected, the other latin countries, being further south than a half of France, have usually lower levels of light-hair.
As expected, southern Iberia or southern Italian peninsula have darker types than the rest of the Romance Europe; while central/northern Italy and most of central/northern Iberia have similar leverl than in the 2/3 southern half of France.
As expected, the 1/3 north of France is lighter than the rest of the country (35-50%); but still below the neighboring regions of Germanic countries (50-65%) in Belgian Flander, southern Germany, southern England. And much less than in Holland, Northern Germany or Eastern England (more than 65%). This is exaclty what I feel when I'm going to the Netherlands; where I feel out of context in those tall/blond/blue eyed crowds...
Last edited by french user; 03-15-2012 at 03:53 AM..
Location: Near Tours, France about 47°10'N 0°25'E
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Originally Posted by Neuling
Chinese refers to nationality, Germanic not, thus your analogy doesn't make sense. That is all I am saying. The analogy would be between Han and Germanics, as that is regardless of location or naturalization.
Say "people of Mandarin-speaking culture" instead of "Chinese", if you want to an exact comparision... and the demonstration will work even better...
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Originally Posted by Neuling
Again, language to me is just a superficial aspect.
What for you are thse non-superficial aspects then if language is so superficial? outside of a supposed "dna identity"?...
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Originally Posted by Neuling
I don't share your views on France as a Mediterranean country at all.
France is a mediterranean country, get used with it. It is the case since 2100 years... And it will continue.
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Originally Posted by Neuling
The northern half of France feels as little Mediterranean as the Netherlands.
I don't think that the Netherlands get the roots of their culture coming from the mediterranean... But they do from the Baltic/north sea.
that northern France doesn't usually "feel" mediterranean in the strick sense (such as climate, vegetation), well I obviously agree. But it is also the case of big parts of the iberian peninsula:
This beautil part of Spanish coast "looks mediterranean"? http://www.crazyflick.com/wp-content...DSCR048871.jpg
Does the black sea coast of Turkey "look mediterranean"?
I don't see anyone opposing the fact that those countries are not mediterranean countries because many of their regions do not border the med. In the strikest sense, Portugal is not a mediterranean country...
By the way, when I said "mediterranean France vs cool Germanic countries" I was basically joking about the actual climatic condition that are now covering Europe. Where I am now, in central France it is 22°C... and when I watch German map I see temperatures between 2°C and 10°C...
The only area of France that can "feels" more or less alike the netherlands is the nord-pas-de-Calais area, certainly not the whole northern half or the country: This part used to be part of the low countries during habsbourg times: Flemish architecture, flat land, red-brick architecture, more nordic looking people, Flemish-style foods, beer-drinking culture... quite different to the rest of northern France.
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Originally Posted by Neuling
Nor do Bavarians feel any connection to the Baltic Sea and its people just because the northernmost part of Germany borders the Baltic Sea.
From what area of Europe is soming Germanic culture? (and "genes" if you believe in the fact that Germanic is a somehow genetic term, as you let us believe so). It is precisely the Baltic area where is coming the "nordic looks" you identify so much with, and the Germanic langauges. If Bavaria speaks German it is because Germanic colonisation and acculturation from the Baltic area occured.
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Originally Posted by Neuling
Those are really odd views. Do Floridians feel a connection to the Pacific just because the US has the West Coast?
The mainstream American culture don't find its roots in the Pacific coast!
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Originally Posted by Neuling
Sorry, can't watch all those videos because of my slow Internet access :P
It is a shame... this is often funny. You would maybe probalby will understand some funny aspects of how our stereotypes differs from yours...
Last edited by french user; 03-15-2012 at 04:57 AM..
[quote=dragonborn;23401872]You guys certainly write a lot on this subject. Very interesting stuff...keep it up.
The UK is an interesting subject for me, not just because I'm from there. Genetically, it seems that England at least is predominantly Germanic, whether from invading Saxon or Norse tribes. There are conflicting stories as to how many of the native British at the time were either wiped out or pushed westwards. The old English language was so widespread by the time the Normans invaded that I somehow doubt that England back than was a nation of predominantly native people ruled by just a few Saxon or Norse overlords. This is why so much genetic evidence shows great similarities between England specifically and countries like the Netherlands.
Do we assume though that blonde haired and blue eyed Brits are distantly of Germanic origin? That's a tough question that no one can really prove. Our "blonde" count is only rivalled by Scandinavian countries. I guess there has to be something in that?
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More that 80 percent of Brits and Irish come from the same stock. Less than 20 percent have Anglo Saxon or Norman genetic influence. Many tribes of Britons, that were not Germanics, were blonde and blue eyed.
Angles, Saxons and Jutes were scant and predatory minorities, but they colonized culturally a defeated and plundered nation with scarce romanization. A minority imposing their culture, just as Spain in Bolivia, for example.
Here, in Spain, we have a region called Bretoña that was settled by REAL Britons fleeing from Britannia during the fourth century. They are blonde, blue eyed and square faced. They still live there and they preserved their language for centuries. They still have a different Mass Ritual.
France is not a Mediterranean country. The south of France alone is, but northern France is northern European to the max, not unlike Belgium, the Netherlands or even southern England. Take the city of Lille for example. It resembles a Belgian or even a British city far more than it does Nice or Marseille. Even further south, the region surrounding Lyon is far more sub-Alpine than Mediterranean, as are the people.
You have a beautiful, diverse and great country my French cousin. Yeah, you're all "French" but with many regional differences, but solely Mediterranean you are not.
Vive la France!
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As French user stated before, France is a country whose culture emanates directly from the Roman Empire and from Greece. so France is a country based in Mediterranean culture (Rome), no matter if their inhabitants look like Barbie and Kent.
By the same rule of thumb, the UK speaks a language with a remote Anglo Saxon and Old Norse ancestry even though more that 80 percent of the population predates the invasions that came after Rome's widrawal.
But even considering such trifle questions as modern languages and physical appearance, all Western European countries are based in the Greco-Latin culture and are LATIN. They all shared Latin as the language of cultured people until just a few centuries ago.
You guys certainly write a lot on this subject. Very interesting stuff...keep it up.
The UK is an interesting subject for me, not just because I'm from there. Genetically, it seems that England at least is predominantly Germanic, whether from invading Saxon or Norse tribes. There are conflicting stories as to how many of the native British at the time were either wiped out or pushed westwards. The old English language was so widespread by the time the Normans invaded that I somehow doubt that England back than was a nation of predominantly native people ruled by just a few Saxon or Norse overlords. This is why so much genetic evidence shows great similarities between England specifically and countries like the Netherlands.
Do we assume though that blonde haired and blue eyed Brits are distantly of Germanic origin? That's a tough question that no one can really prove. Our "blonde" count is only rivalled by Scandinavian countries. I guess there has to be something in that?
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More that 80 percent of Brits and Irish come from the same stock. Less than 20 percent have Anglo Saxon or Norman genetic influence. Many tribes of Britons, that were not Germanics, were blonde and blue eyed.
Angles, Saxons and Jutes were scant and predatory minorities, but they colonized culturally a defeated and plundered nation with scarce romanization. A minority imposing their culture, just as Spain in Bolivia, for example.
Here, in Spain, we have a region called Bretoña that was settled by REAL Britons fleeing from Britannia during the fourth century. They are blonde, blue eyed and square faced. They still live there and they preserved their language for centuries. They still have a different Mass Ritual.
Ireland and Britain were subject to various waves of immigrants, stone-age people and later on Celtic and Germanic people. And those two countries should not be lumped together as they are quite different genetically these days: The Anglo-Saxon Invasion: Britain Is More Germanic than It Thinks - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
In Ireland there is very little Germanic influence, Britain however is predominantly Germanic today.
I'd rather trust a well recognized British researcher than the SPIEGEL.
Blood of the Isles
In his 2006 book Blood of the Isles (published in the United States and Canada as Saxons, Vikings and Celts: The Genetic Roots of Britain and Ireland), Sykes examines British genetic "clans". He presents evidence from mitochondrial DNA, inherited by both sexes from their mothers, and the Y chromosome, inherited by men from their fathers, for the following points:
The genetic makeup of Britain and Ireland is overwhelmingly what it has been since the Neolithic period and to a very considerable extent since the Mesolithic period, especially in the female line, i.e. those people, who in time would become identified as British Celts (culturally speaking), but who (genetically speaking) should more properly be called Cro-Magnon[citation needed]. In continental Europe, this same Cro-Magnon genetic legacy gave rise to the Basques. But both "Basque" and "Celt" are cultural designations not genetic ones and therefore to call a Celt "Basque" or a Basque "Celtic", is a fallacy.[citation needed]
The contribution of the Celts of central Europe to the genetic makeup of Britain and Ireland was minimal; most of the genetic contribution to the British Isles of those we think of as Celtic, came from western continental Europe, I.E. the Atlantic seaboard.
The Picts were not a separate people: the genetic makeup of the formerly Pictish areas of Scotland shows no significant differences from the general profile of the rest of Britain. The two "Pictland" regions are Tayside and Grampian.
The Anglo-Saxons are supposed, by some, to have made a substantial contribution to the genetic makeup of England, but in Sykes's opinion it was under 20 percent of the total, even in southern England.
The Vikings (Danes and Norwegians) also made a substantial contribution, which is concentrated in central, northern, and eastern England - the territories of the ancient Danelaw. There is a very heavy Viking contribution in the Orkney and Shetland Islands, in the vicinity of 40 percent. Women as well as men contributed substantially in all these areas, showing that the Vikings engaged in large-scale settlement.
The Norman contribution was extremely small, on the order of 2 percent.
There are only sparse traces of the Roman occupation, almost all in southern England.
In spite of all these later contributions, the genetic makeup of the British Isles remains overwhelmingly what it was in the Neolithic: a mixture of the first Mesolithic inhabitants with Neolithic settlers who came by sea from Iberia and ultimately from the eastern Mediterranean.
There is a difference between the genetic histories of men and women in Britain and Ireland. The matrilineages show a mixture of original Mesolithic inhabitants and later Neolithic arrivals from Iberia, whereas the patrilineages are much more strongly correlated with Iberia. This suggests (though Sykes does not emphasize this point) replacement of much of the original male population by new arrivals with a more powerful social organization.
There is evidence for a "Genghis Khan effect", whereby some male lineages in ancient times were much more successful than others in leaving large numbers of descendants; e.g. Niall of the Nine Hostages in 4th and 5th century Ireland and Somerled in 12th century Scotland.
Why would I call it people of Mandarin-speaking culture?! Chinese is a nationality, no more, no less. It has nothing to do with language. There are lots of Chinese that do not speak Mandarin.
The genetic aspect of ethnicity plays a big role in my view. And outside of that all those things that make up culture. Food, customs and rituals, religion, music, etc.
You still have to name the aspects of French culture that dates back to the Romans and that can't be found in Germany, by the way.
You won't find much. And why? Because France was Celtic long before the Romans came. People already had their culture and civilization. The Roman influence was just an add-on, not a replacement.
France is not a Mediterranean country just because it has a -rather short- Mediterranean coast. Just like Germany is not a Baltic country just because it has a coast along the Baltic sea. Unlike with Italy or Greece, the bulk of both countries are far away from those coasts. France was not a tabula rasa that was filled from the Mediterranean. It was already full of Celtic culture. The Romans themselves wrote that they took blonde and red-haired slaves from what is now France to Rome.
I think even Portugal is more of a Mediterranean country than France is, although it does not even border the Mediterranean sea. If you walked through Lisbon and Paris and didn't know, you would say Lisbon is Mediterranean, not Paris.
The place you will go to at the weekend looks nice, Atlantic style, there are similar places in Britain. Actually architecture is a good indication. Houses and buildings in most of France don't look Mediterranean at all.
I just picked Limousin on a French real estate site: Agence mercure[]=1&surface=0-9999999999&rooms[]=&rooms[]=&rooms[]=&rooms[]=&rooms[]=&rooms[]=&surf_terre=0-99999999999&departement[]=87
Might as well be in Germany or Switzerland...
As I said before, regardless of today's weather long-term statistics show that the climatic difference between France and Germany is little, except for the southern third of France. Most of France is pretty different from Marseille in every way, not just climate.
As I said ealier, I do not think all Germans are Germanic, I am an example of that. It is a Germanic-Celtic-Slavic mix, which however is often considered Germanic because the Celts have been kind of forgotten in most of Europe.
And it was the same in Germany, there already was culture and civilization long before Germanic people came from the north towards the south. In my view Celtic culture is the foundation/substrate of most of Europe.
No, Germans speak German for the same reason people in Wales and Ireland speak mostly English. Celtic languages have died out in mainland Europe. Just like in Cornwall, but that say nothing about ethniciy or culture.
Gee, I do not identify with the Nordic looks, Nor did those necessarily come from the North. Celts were also blond and light-eyed according to the Romans.
"The mainstream American culture don't find its roots in the Pacific coast!" Nor does mainstream French culture have its roots in the Mediterranean coast. The Celts did not come via the Mediterranean, they spread from central Europe in almost all directions: http://farm1.staticflickr.com/240/45...2ab9e5d2_b.jpg
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I should have noticed earlier, but she comes across as such a "blond type," lol.
