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Old 03-11-2012, 08:26 AM
 
701 posts, read 489,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Joshua View Post
You need population growth. The way our societies are set up, the young take care of the old. If you only have one young person for every two old people you are looking at a national financial disaster.
What you are talking about is population stability. And this idea that working age vs. non-working age relies on the assumption that the working age population will actually find work. As real unemployment in most western nations is well above 15%, this is a largely redundant argument.

 
Old 03-11-2012, 08:28 AM
 
701 posts, read 489,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob702 View Post
Not really. Look at Japan where there is more of a traditioal role for women. Same with Korea.
Countries that are thought to be rather liberal, feminist, "socialist" like Sweden or Norway tend to have higher birth rates than countries like Italy or Spain where many people are strongly catholic.

I think there is a pretty good correlation between wealth of a nation and birth rate. All first world countries experience low birth rates. Availability of contraceptives, feminism as well, careers, no need of big families as a safety net... all that and more has to be taken into account.
It depends what the comparison is, Japan with a low birthrate is still far more feminist dominated than the muslim world with a high Birthrate. While its true the vast welfare state in certain Scandinavian nations has mitigated to some extent the worst excesses of feminism, on a global scale Birthrates are still low.
 
Old 03-11-2012, 08:49 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,693 posts, read 17,001,773 times
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'Plagued' is a loaded term.

What's wrong with low birthrates, anyway? Europe is already so densely populated, nations like Germany can afford to lose some people. What might be more concerning is an AGEING population, though.
 
Old 03-11-2012, 08:50 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,693 posts, read 17,001,773 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonAreaWeatherSummary View Post
It depends what the comparison is, Japan with a low birthrate is still far more feminist dominated than the muslim world with a high Birthrate. While its true the vast welfare state in certain Scandinavian nations has mitigated to some extent the worst excesses of feminism, on a global scale Birthrates are still low.
Yes I wonder how traditional Japan is now. I expect it to my less traditional by Asian standards, but then again the Japanese have always been a very closed-off country/society. From the Japanese girls I met vs the Chinese ones, the Chinese ones seemed more like Westerners in their behaviour, attitudes, general lifestyle.
 
Old 03-11-2012, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Yorkshire, England
4,407 posts, read 3,320,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimac20 View Post
'Plagued' is a loaded term.

What's wrong with low birthrates, anyway? Europe is already so densely populated, nations like Germany can afford to lose some people. What might be more concerning is an AGEING population, though.
Exactly, it doesn't look like it will happen any time soon because our birthrate is not particularly low and we have high levels of immigration, but I wish our population in this country would decline (or at least not rise) and reduce pressure on land/resources/infrastructure. Population growth can't go on forever alongside a resource-dependent high standard of living, and 51 million people in England is far too many for an area the size of Alabama. Thankfully we have two sensible countries in Germany and Japan who are going to go through the challenges of an ageing, declining population first and show us how it can be managed.
 
Old 03-11-2012, 11:10 AM
 
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,693 posts, read 17,001,773 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben86 View Post
Exactly, it doesn't look like it will happen any time soon because our birthrate is not particularly low and we have high levels of immigration, but I wish our population in this country would decline (or at least not rise) and reduce pressure on land/resources/infrastructure. Population growth can't go on forever alongside a resource-dependent high standard of living, and 51 million people in England is far too many for an area the size of Alabama. Thankfully we have two sensible countries in Germany and Japan who are going to go through the challenges of an ageing, declining population first and show us how it can be managed.
I always find it amazing how densely populated other countries are, coming from the most sparsely populated state in one of the most sparsely populated countries. Even the US felt very dense for me (so many cities!), let alone the UK. A tiny fraction of Oz (about 1/40th the size) with 3 times the population. Suburban areas in Australia feel more dead than rural areas in Vietnam or China.
 
Old 03-11-2012, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Toronto
3,339 posts, read 2,722,899 times
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Birthrates are dropping all over the world as countries industrialize, as they become more educated, as they become more egalitarian, as they become more individualist. This is definitely a good thing in my view.

If lower birthrates mean better quality of life with fewer people, versus worse quality of life with more people, then I doubt many people would argue for the latter (more people experiencing existence for the sake of existence, regardless of how bad their lives would be otherwise).
 
Old 03-11-2012, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Toronto
3,339 posts, read 2,722,899 times
Reputation: 2239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob702 View Post
Not really. Look at Japan where there is more of a traditioal role for women. Same with Korea.
Countries that are thought to be rather liberal, feminist, "socialist" like Sweden or Norway tend to have higher birth rates than countries like Italy or Spain where many people are strongly catholic.

I think there is a pretty good correlation between wealth of a nation and birth rate. All first world countries experience low birth rates. Availability of contraceptives, feminism as well, careers, no need of big families as a safety net... all that and more has to be taken into account.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonAreaWeatherSummary View Post
It depends what the comparison is, Japan with a low birthrate is still far more feminist dominated than the muslim world with a high Birthrate. While its true the vast welfare state in certain Scandinavian nations has mitigated to some extent the worst excesses of feminism, on a global scale Birthrates are still low.
Iran is one counterexample in the Muslim world.

Actually, I think demographers have said that Iran has had one of the most surprising and shockingly rapid fertility drops the world has seen. In the eighties, it was either in the ballpark of 5 or 6 kids per woman (can't remember the exact number). In the 2000s, just a generation later, it was at replacement, near 2 per woman. I think liberalization had something to do with it and greater women's education, but that goes to show how much things can change.

China is of course an example where it was forced and coerced, but surprisingly east Asia (including Japan, Korea, Hong Kong etc.) is actually the region of the world that is most low in fertility I think (gives Europe a run for its money).

South Asia is more of a higher-birthrate region (probably a bit more conservative than east Asia) but there have been decreases in fertility there too. Bangladesh's fertility is apparent getting toward replacement (apparently, Bangladeshi immigrants to Britain have a higher birthrate than Bangladeshis themselves in their home country!) which is good for that country is terribly dense and can't afford more folks. Sri Lanka is around replacement I think and has one of the highest indexes of female equality and education for its region (even though it's still got things to work on, such as recovering from that civil war that quashed some of its potential). India is a bit unequal -- the southern states of Tamil Nadu and Kerala are actually at replacement or even a bit below at the moment! (which are actually more liberal I think than much of North India, interestingly enough, they have been parts of India outside that ruled by Muslim dynasties in history). The poorest states of India, actually further north have rates of 3-4 per woman.

The Muslim world and Africa still have high birthrates. Hopefully their quality of life will be able to change (ending on an optimistic note, the world is getting better for many, though we've got a long, long way to go).
 
Old 03-11-2012, 11:27 AM
 
37 posts, read 42,594 times
Reputation: 23
if a country has a low birthrate then it will need immigration to make up. It would greatly alter a countries culture. It is also race suicide.
 
Old 03-11-2012, 11:30 AM
 
60 posts, read 77,032 times
Reputation: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by tradlover View Post
It is also race suicide.
I thought thinking people were over all that "race preservation" bull****...
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