Supersized Moscow (percentage, move, kids, beautiful)

[russiaonline]

Originally Posted by pzrOrange

I am afraid the American tourists were a little bit too generous in their direct comparison.

I agree that Vladivostok pales in comparison. But still, it's not too far.

please stop pretending that Russia is anywhere close to Western Europe in terms of political or economic development.

Let's compare it with America, ok? Just not some god forgotten village with SoCal

[russiaonline]

Originally Posted by pzrOrange

PS: dont get me wrong, I absolutely LOVE Russia

Hmmm, that... A top MBA will let you find a great job in Peter or Moscow - maybe far greater than in MN. But you are there...

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by russiaonline

This applies to 100% of the world's countries

Not really. Again, look at the European countries I named.

Infrastructure problems: good roads (or any roads), adequate electricity (hydroelectric development as well as modernizing electrical installations), public transport in rural areas, quality of phone lines (though most people use cell phones now). All these things saw some improvement in the latter half of the 90's and early 2000's. I'm talking about Siberia and the Far East. Simple access to faxes and internet (this problem is now solved).

I can't imagine how someone likened Vlad to San Fran, except for geographic similarities; both cities are built on hills to some extent, and border a bay. Don't get too carried away with the comment.

Personally, I like Khabarovsk, Irkutsk, Ulan Ude, and Petropavlovsk (not to mention Russia's crown jewel, St. Pete's). That doesn't mean Russia isn't a Fourth World country. It's coming along, but so much more needs to be done. Industry could be improved, with more investment in light industry and consumer goods. This would provide more jobs, too. Factories need to be modernized. Russia produces some food products that could be exported, but there's no quality control. Design and engineering of roads needs to be improved greatly, especially between suburbs and the cities, to avoid massive traffic problems (Moscow=Exhibit A). The design of apartment complexes was never completed; apartment buildings went up in the Soviet period, and were designed to have gardens and playgrounds around them, but that didn't happen in the vast majority of cases. Construction debris is still helter-skelter around these sites, causing safety hazards, decades after construction.

My personal pet peeve is that Russia no longer is building hydrofoils (Метеоры), which are still needed for public transportation in some areas. I love the hydrofoils, and they're very practical in riverine environments. Too bad they're so expensive to operate. The West could never afford to operate any on a long-term basis. This is one area in which Russia excelled.

One could go on and on, but enough is enough.

[russiaonline]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

Not really. Again, look at the European countries I named.

We better speak the same language. Let's compare Russia with America, for simplicity, and use real income, not quality of life (which is very dependant on people's mentality).

Infrastructure problems: good roads (or any roads)

Historically Russia had awful roads, thanks to climate. Not only road constuction is expensive, but they have to be restored every Spring.

Still, name a city with really bad roads. Or a highway.

adequate electricity

There is no shortage of power - actually, Russia exports electricity. Blackfalls (due to storms) in major cities are fixed in minutes. In smaller cities it may take some time, but a few hours at worst.

public transport in rural areas

Said an American...

quality of phone lines (though most people use cell phones now).

Yes, an anachronism.

I'm talking about Siberia and the Far East.

So, you're talking about Russia's "Alaska"... Don't you understand how ridiculous this is? It's sad that some of these areas (often very beautiful!) are dead or in disrepair, but they don't represent Russia.

Simple access to faxes and internet (this problem is now solved).

Yes, cheap broadband is officially considered a necessity, and should be available to all.

I can't imagine how someone likened Vlad to San Fran, except for geographic similarities; both cities are built on hills to some extent, and border a bay. Don't get too carried away with the comment.

Dirt and hills aside, don't you see similarities? Less rich, less middle-class, but overall?

That doesn't mean Russia isn't a Fourth World country.

Russians are living in a stone age???

It's coming along, but so much more needs to be done. Industry could be improved, with more investment in light industry and consumer goods. This would provide more jobs, too.

Again, applies to America as well.

Factories need to be modernized.

Labor is expensive, otherwise all of them would be up to 2012 - Russia is not short on money, and some investments are pouring.

Russia produces some food products that could be exported, but there's no quality control.

Quality is good or great (can't really compare with American... [bad-word]), but cost is not...

Design and engineering of roads needs to be improved greatly, especially between suburbs and the cities, to avoid massive traffic problems (Moscow=Exhibit A).

Impossible. Russian cities are not built for two cars per family. The problem is currently being fixed by giving public transportation a priority. Some "auto lovers" are trying to fight it.

It's unbelievable, but back in 1970's, when there were very few cars, Vladivostok had bus only lanes. Soviet city managers sure could plan for the future. But then, for some reason they were demolished - and that was also in USSR. Mda...

The design of apartment complexes was never completed; apartment buildings went up in the Soviet period, and were designed to have gardens and playgrounds around them, but that didn't happen in the vast majority of cases.

It did happen actually - but only recently, after people demanded them. Maybe not everywhere, though.

Construction debris is still helter-skelter around these sites, causing safety hazards, decades after construction.

In a dying Petropalovsk maybe...

My personal pet peeve is that Russia no longer is building hydrofoils (Метеоры), which are still needed for public transportation in some areas. I love the hydrofoils, and they're very practical in riverine environments. Too bad they're so expensive to operate. The West could never afford to operate any on a long-term basis. This is one area in which Russia excelled.

Ah, that's one of the gazillion things people miss. Wild capitalism, let it be damned... Here they were called Comets.

[erasure]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

Not really. Again, look at the European countries I named.

Infrastructure problems: good roads (or any roads), adequate electricity (hydroelectric development as well as modernizing electrical installations), public transport in rural areas, quality of phone lines (though most people use cell phones now). All these things saw some improvement in the latter half of the 90's and early 2000's. I'm talking about Siberia and the Far East. Simple access to faxes and internet (this problem is now solved).

Ruth quite honestly I don't even care much what infrastructure there looks like. I am far more concerned with what the life of an average Russian is all about, a life of a person who is not a *businessman.*
A life in a country where everything is bought and sold, where money became EVERYTHING, at each and every level, be that laws or politics, or such a trivial matter as placing a child to a day care ( even such simple matter can't often be resolved without a bribe.)
I was reading recently about a case in Pyatigorsk, where seven (!) women in maternity ward were put on IV while in labor and told to "wait" until doctor's arrival because they didn't have money for bribes. All their unborn, (otherwise healthy) children died as the result of it. Or cases about the police brutality - police, that people fear often more than they fear criminals. I mean I wouldn't want to live in a society where you are a step away from this kind of calamities, not protected by law, only by money and you have nowhere to turn ( well some are appealing now to European court, but good luck I'd say...)
The corrupt society where money ( or absence) of it determine the moral issues, the matter of life and death itself, the merciless society that Russia became in many ways from the nineties - that's what I am more concerned about, more than any infrastructure problems, really...That's what really sets her apart from the civilized world today. In this respect Russia was more civilized even back in Soviet times, ( talking about 60ies-80ies.)

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by russiaonline

We better speak the same language. Let's compare Russia with America, for simplicity, and use real income, not quality of life (which is very dependant on people's mentality).

That's the easy way out, since the US is on the decline. How about Canada? It's a northern country, like Russia. Much more apt comparison.

Originally Posted by russiaonline

Historically Russia had awful roads, thanks to climate. Not only road constuction is expensive, but they have to be restored every Spring.
Still, name a city with really bad roads. Or a highway.

Again, speaking of roads outside the cities, going into the rural areas. Along much of the Amur, there were no roads until the late 1990's. The river itself was the road, and public transport ran on the Amur. Only because production of hydrofoils ceased did the government build a road all along the northern Amur, and extended bus service out there.

Originally Posted by russiaonline

There is no shortage of power - actually, Russia exports electricity. Blackfalls (due to storms) in major cities are fixed in minutes. In smaller cities it may take some time, but a few hours at worst.

There was insufficient energy for development in Siberia and the Far East. A new hydroelectric plant was built outside Khabarovsk, and then finally the city had enough energy for air conditioning. But you need a surplus of electrical energy to power economic development. India is facing this problem now. If they don't come up with new sources of energy very soon, their booming economy will grind to a halt.

Originally Posted by russiaonline

Yes, an anachronism.

Phone lines aren't an anachronism. You still need them for faxes, and not everyone has cell phones. Plus cell phones don't always work. And you need good cable for functional internet. Russia laid new phone lines along the length of the Trans-Siberian railway in the mid 90's, and the Alaska telephone company laid new phone line on Kamchatka. But more is needed. Yakutia is still disconnected, as if it were on Mars. I'm sure there are other places like that. Permafrost is always an issue, but Canada manages, in spite of the permafrost.

Originally Posted by russiaonline

So, you're talking about Russia's "Alaska"... Don't you understand how ridiculous this is? It's sad that some of these areas (often very beautiful!) are dead or in disrepair, but they don't represent Russia.

How can these regions not represent Russia when, in fact, they are at least 2/3 (if not 3/4) of Russia's landmass? Again, Canada manages its northern regions decently. Alaska has good roads between the main towns and cities. The villages are another matter, granted. And the Siberian and Far Eastern cities are hardly dead and in disrepair. Well, not any more than all of Russia is in disrepair (again, with the possible exception of Moscow). But far from dead. They shouldn't be written off, if for no other reason than that they can bring in revenue through trade with Japan, Korea, and China.

Originally Posted by russiaonline

Russians are living in a stone age???

The term "Fourth World" applies to Native reservations in the US, Canada, Native settlements in Australia and New Zealand, as well as to places like the Amazon, etc. It's not just the stone age.

Originally Posted by russiaonline

Labor is expensive, otherwise all of them would be up to 2012 - Russia is not short on money, and some investments are pouring.

Quality is good or great (can't really compare with American... [bad-word]), but cost is not...

Impossible. Russian cities are not built for two cars per family. The problem is currently being fixed by giving public transportation a priority. Some "auto lovers" are trying to fight it.

Quality of Russian goods isn't always consistent, that's what I meant by quality control. Not consistent enough for export. Too bad. Why doesn't Russia export its ice cream? NOWHERE in the world is there such good ice cream! Instead, there's the absurd situation of America's "Ben and Jerry's" ice cream being imported to the country with the best ice cream in the world. This is what I mean. There are a lot of things Russia could be exporting. Nobody has any vision, and factories probably couldn't produce enough. Investment needs to happen. Traditional Russian crafts were very popular in the US in the 90's, but all of that production collapsed, due to the oppressive tax system under Yeltsin.

The point is, that Russia still has a long way to go. It's coming along, but much remains to be done. I think that if Medvedev had been allowed to flex his muscles, and if the economy hadn't taken a hit just after he took office, some very interesting and very good things could have happened in Russia. A lost opportunity.

And as erasure pointed out, it's difficult to do anything without paying bribes. This holds back many small businesses. There are successful small businesses, to be sure, but there could be so much more in that regard, if it weren't for an antiquated bureaucracy and corruption. Small businesses are what help stabilize an economy and help it thrive.

[russiaonline]

Originally Posted by erasure

I am far more concerned with what the life of an average Russian is all about, a life of a person who is not a *businessman.*

Describe the differences in lives of Russians and Americans. Facts only, please.

I was reading recently about a case in Pyatigorsk, where seven (!) women in maternity ward were put on IV while in labor and told to "wait" until doctor's arrival because they didn't have money for bribes. All their unborn, (otherwise healthy) children died as the result of it.

That myth wasn't even supposed to be read by ill Russian emigrants. The only thing that happened in that large birth clinic, is some doctors or nurses demanding bribes. The criminal investigation began as soon as people complained.

Or cases about the police brutality

You confuse Russia with America - The Police State.

[russiaonline]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

That's the easy way out, since the US is on the decline. How about Canada? It's a northern country, like Russia. Much more apt comparison.

Fine with me, but so many Americans believe that Canada is poor...

Again, speaking of roads outside the cities, going into the rural areas. Along much of the Amur, there were no roads until the late 1990's. The river itself was the road, and public transport ran on the Amur. Only because production of hydrofoils ceased did the government build a road all along the northern Amur, and extended bus service out there.

There are no roads in virtually all of Far East! Because it's unpopulated

There was insufficient energy for development in Siberia and the Far East.

1 billion kilowatts are being exported to the other bank of Amur (to China). In the near future exports are expected to quadruple, and then quadruple again, and again.

Phone lines aren't an anachronism. You still need them for faxes

You don't, plus fax is an anachronism.

and not everyone has cell phones.

All have them, except for very little kids, and the very old.

Plus cell phones don't always work.

Cell coverage is way cheaper in Russia than wires. They do work in places where people live.

And you need good cable for functional internet.

Ethernet is not a phone line. Ethernet coverage is great.

Yakutia is still disconnected, as if it were on Mars.

People there don't have phones and Internet?

How can these regions not represent Russia when, in fact, they are at least 2/3 (if not 3/4) of Russia's landmass?

Yakutia and Kamchatka, no matter how large they look, have about 0,0% of the population.

These provinces may be close to Alaska, but the climate there is absolutely not as in south Alaska. Let alone Canada.

The term "Fourth World" applies to Native reservations in the US, Canada, Native settlements in Australia and New Zealand, as well as to places like the Amazon, etc. It's not just the stone age.

Not too far. Do you really think that Russians live like that?

Quality of Russian goods isn't always consistent, that's what I meant by quality control.

You simply don't know - there is a decent QA in almost everything.

Why doesn't Russia export its ice cream?

Made from imported ingredients?

There are a lot of things Russia could be exporting. Nobody has any vision, and factories probably couldn't produce enough. Investment needs to happen.

There are almost infinite money available for viable production businesses. The problem's are 1. climate (high construction and maintainance costs), 2. expensive labor, 3. imports from Russia being blocked by tariffs (should change, since Russia's acceptance to the WTO).

Traditional Russian crafts were very popular in the US in the 90's, but all of that production collapsed, due to the oppressive tax system under Yeltsin.

Hmmm, but neo-liberals laxed taxes...

I think that if Medvedev had been allowed to flex his muscles, and if the economy hadn't taken a hit just after he took office, some very interesting and very good things could have happened in Russia. A lost opportunity.

What could he possibly do, if he was close to nothing - a miserable man.

And as erasure pointed out, it's difficult to do anything without paying bribes.

Reality check: few Russians pay bribes.

This holds back many small businesses. There are successful small businesses, to be sure, but there could be so much more in that regard, if it weren't for an antiquated bureaucracy and corruption.

Fantasies are great, but in reality the only thing that hurts small businesses is competition - it is often excessive. Even huge interest rates (up to 30%) don't really play any role (except for farming), because we've got cash, lots of it. And corruption... don't be an idiot, repeating that BS

[Ruth4Truth]

Americans who think Canada is poor haven't been to Canada. Canada is more like Russia, in that taxes are higher, because they get many benefits (free health care, education), so the people don't have as much "disposable income" as in the US. But they have greater security, because of that.

The Far East is far from unpopulated, you don't know what you're talking about. The climate in Kamchatka is like SE Alaska. It can't be compared to Yakutia. The ocean makes the climate much milder on Kamchatka. If you'd been there, you'd know. And the phone service has never functioned reliably, not within Yakutia, nor calling from outside Yakutia.

RE: ethernet, phone lines, etc., you're talking like a Moskvich. You have no idea what it's like in other parts of the country. Russia wouldn't have wasted resources upgrading phone cables in the 90's if it were irrelevant. Nor would the rest of the developed world have done so.

Yes, I know about the hydro development in the Far East. That was my point. My original post on this topic said that there was none of this UNTIL the gov't finally began making infrastructure improvements in the late 90's and early 2000's. Russia now is in the position of a 4th World country trying to leap into First World status. Something like that, over such a vast territory, takes time and money, which Russia sometimes has, and sometimes doesn't, depending on many factors, not the least of which is the global economy.

It's not I who said Russia is 4th World, I originally said many travellers have made that comment, including various Native American and Canadian Native people who have visited. They know a giant reservation when they see one.

What do you mean, the ingredients for Russian ice cream are imported? It's Russian cream. It's all Russian.
RE: quality control---this is what Russians themselves have told me, when I've suggested Russia export certain food items. The factories are antiquated, plus there hasn't been much of a tradition of quality control. There's a lot of potential in Russia that's being overlooked. Common labor in Russia isn't expensive. Europe is using Russia as a source of cheap labor. If Russia can't afford to pay its own workers, then there's no hope. This is nonsense.

The bribes comment was made in the context of setting up and running small businesses. I'll let you fight it out with erasure as to whether "few Russians pay bribes".

Really, if you sincerely cared about your country's welfare, you would want to identify areas that need improvement, rather than denying that anything's wrong. This is the Stalinist "If you're not with us, you're against us" mentality. To criticize means you're an enemy. Quite the opposite is true. Criticism and analysis is essential to progress. I'd like to see a Russia that's democratic, relatively corruption-free, prosperous, with a higher standard of living for everyone. There's SO MUCH untapped potential there!

[russiaonline]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

The Far East is far from unpopulated, you don't know what you're talking about.

I live here. Kamchatka has 300,000 people. Yakutia 1 mln, and mostly natives, who generally live... well, not in the 21st century. So few people in a such huge area = unpopulated.

The climate in Kamchatka is like SE Alaska.

10C average day temperature difference in Winter is a huge difference.

Vladivostok has a mild climate for Russia, let alone the Far East, but it's much colder than Anchorage.

And the phone service has never functioned reliably, not within Yakutia, nor calling from outside Yakutia.

Because it's not wired to anything, and sat connection is unreliable.

RE: ethernet, phone lines, etc., you're talking like a Moskvich. You have no idea what it's like in other parts of the country.

It's really wierd that you extrapolate Yakutia and Kamchatka on all Russia. It's like I'd say that America is like Indian reservations.

Russia wouldn't have wasted resources upgrading phone cables in the 90's if it were irrelevant.

Times changed. Now that recently upgraded phone lines are being upgraded with ethernet. And everybody have mobiles.

Yes, I know about the hydro development in the Far East. That was my point. My original post on this topic said that there was none of this UNTIL the gov't finally began making infrastructure improvements in the late 90's and early 2000's.

Before 1991 there were developments - after all, almost everything man made was created back then. Then industrial production and farming output dropped dramatically, causing a massive decrease in energy consumption - it went to China. Since Putin, there are lots of talks about large-scale development of the region, and some things are being done already.

Russia now is in the position of a 4th World country trying to leap into First World status.

Yes, you really believe that Russia looks like some Inuit village

They know a giant reservation when they see one.

Yep, the exact same thing:




And here's my home "village":













Enough? That's 6000 miles away from Moscow

American invasion of a "Russian reservation":

What do you mean, the ingredients for Russian ice cream are imported? It's Russian cream. It's all Russian.

New Zealand's cream is cheaper. And Chineese. Russia doesn't even produce enough cream.

RE: quality control---this is what Russians themselves have told me, when I've suggested Russia export certain food items.

Then you've spoken with some idiots. Just visit a few supermarkets, and judge the quality yourself.

The factories are antiquated, plus there hasn't been much of a tradition of quality control.

BS. Many, if not almost all, factories are full of EU and US equipment, and GOST R (State Standard Russia) quality standards meet or exceeds ANSI and similar - with which Russian factories are also certified.

Common labor in Russia isn't expensive. Europe is using Russia as a source of cheap labor.

Uzbek temporary workers working full-time earn $2000+ a month. Russians want much more (for working hard), plus 30% taxes on top of that. That's some very expensive "common labor".

If Russia can't afford to pay its own workers, then there's no hope. This is nonsense.

There are lots of jobs, but Russians don't like to work hard for $1000 ($2000+ with cost of living), which is necessary to make competitive products. They want $3000+ ($4000-$5000, depending on what you spend it on). Plus 30% taxes.

The bribes comment was made in the context of setting up and running small businesses.

Any examples?

Really, if you sincerely cared about your country's welfare, you would want to identify areas that need improvement, rather than denying that anything's wrong.

I'm merely commenting on some russophobic BS. Like that Russia is like an Indian reservation... you really did my day

Russia is very well aware of its problems. Not so much about what has to be done... The government has recently decided to go on a multi-trillion dollar shopping spree - the military is already receiving tons of money, social support and developmental projects are getting started as well.

But, there is criticism, to say the least. The right doesn't want serious public spending, and especially investments - even though, private capital is absolutely not going to invest in Siberian and Far Eastern infrastructure, necessary to develop the regions.

This is the Stalinist "If you're not with us, you're against us" mentality.

It's from the Bible