Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This is where things get very complicated.
No doubt that Putin is tightening control and squashing any dissent, however when the US politicians bringing the issue of opposition mention someone like Khodorkovsky in the same sentence ( and they do it quite often,) it brings the worst fears in average Russians, because as far as average Russian is concerned,
Khodorkovsky is not a "prisoner of conscience," and just your "once wealthy businessman" as Americans present it, but an inseparable part of mafia that made its wealth in the 90ies on a national disaster.
The tricky part is, Khodorkovsky was representing the financial interests of the US shareholders in oil business, so this part of mafia was "ok" by American standards, where someone like Putin, who came as a "defender of Russian national interests" stepped on American toes. This is how things were perceived for quite some time, and that's when Putin was riding high in terms of his popularity. However with time a lot of Russians figured out that Putin was not less corrupt than "opposition from the 90ies," - meaning yet another America's hopeful in the nearest past Boris Nemtzov. ( He too doesn't have much hope as a leader of opposition, since he used to be way too close to Putin's government in the past, and his protests are often regarded as a squabble between former buddies.)
Now Navalny of course is from younger generation, but his past of a corporate lawyer plus American education ( even partial) don't serve him well in terms of getting the support on national level - the kind that's needed in this situation.
So as I've said before - the US involvement into Russian affairs back in the 90ies was a gift that keeps on giving, and that's the reason that Putin who thrives on anti-American sentiment is still in power.
Moscow is a hub of corruption where economy is booming for no healthy reasons and half of the country is running there from different regions like from the sinking ship.
Here you are misinformed - just like most Russians, actually. Moscow's economy is not booming - there is simply no place to grow much. Incomes there are much higher than average (double), but the same is true for all such cities in the world. The job market, on the other hand, is really brutal. And qualifications of workers are absolutely not average.
Centralization sucks, but lets not blame Moscovites (most of them are in the first generation) for what they are not guilty of.
Quote:
This is what Putin saying on the subject without any words;
As you are well-aware I suppose, this is Putin's palace in Gellendjik.
See, how succeptible you are to propaganda - that's a private hotel
Quote:
I know you are not exactly protecting Putin and I know that your vote for him is really a vote against the possibility of foreign intervention in the country's affairs, I understand that much. Quite a few Russians voted this way during the last elections.
I didn't vote for him, and told others to vote for commies - despite all of their conservative flaws.
Quote:
No, I mean the difference between the civilized words and uncivilized world is how the society treats its poor.
Here I agree with you, but this is not a definition of a 3rd world country - just of a messed up society.
Quote:
Let's stop right here and you explain to me please what do you see as "American corruption" vs "Russian corruption"? Are you trying to say that it's one and the same thing? ( "total $ amounts" aside.)
They're different, and not really in America's favour. In Russia you can bribe a cop, who stops you for driving with xenon lights. Or customs officers, to let your undervalued imports in. This is uncommon in America.
But what's common there, and doesn't happen in Russia (anymore) is, e.g. war-related corruption. War in Iraq is the best example of this - it was all about money... but not for America, which lost trillions.
I'd choose Russian corruption any time of a day. Especially, considering that it's on the decline.
I've commented on a single phrase (which is actually the only message of the article - the rest is merely filler) with my own observations, that all's quiet here. If you want news, use google translate:
That's Russia's "google news" - the search term is "opposition". Results are: Obama-Turkey, Georgia, Ukraine, Syria, and a bit about Navalniy's trial.
Things didn't get "very-very quite" without the reason, lol - Navalny is accused of crime he didn't commit, the new law was created to label non-governmental organizations in Russia receiving foreign aid as "foreign agents," and other laws are in the making ( just don't remember off top what exactly they are,) so Vova Putin and his gang are obviously not sleeping, lol after a scare they've got during last elections. He is not used to this kind of mass protests. This had to be dealt with ASAP, no doubt.
PS. Here is the members of opposition harassed by the TV reporters during their visit to the US embassy ( just an example - even the title itself "Receiving of the instructions from the US embassy" speaks volume.)
Of course it's a backward authoritarian regime, so as back in Soviet times the opposition has no choice but to turn to the US, however unlike in Soviet times, the US already betrayed its own ideals, unfortunately. So I feel particularly sorry for Yabloko people - they are the "old guard," that never received any foreign funds and Mitrokhin sure shows a lot of dignity here.
Things didn't get "very-very quite" without the reason
If you really believe that somebody's afraid of the government - then you know absolutely nothing about todays Russia.
Quote:
Navalny is accused of crime he didn't commit, the new law was created to label non-governmental organizations in Russia receiving foreign aid as "foreign agents,"
1. The hacked Navalny's email account speaks for itself:
2. The new law will force NGOs financed from abroad to state this. Nothing more. It was caused by the scandal behind Golos (the biggest player in the "white revolution"), when its emails with the US State Department were hacked and released.
Quote:
lol after a scare they've got during last elections.
What kind of scare, if he had hundreds of thousands supports, ready to rip apart anyone, who'd march on Kremlin - and such people were numbered in hundreds, thousands maybe.
Quote:
PS. Here is the members of opposition harassed by the TV reporters during their visit to the US embassy ( just an example - even the title itself "Receiving of the instructions from the US embassy" speaks volume.)
And what kind of an example do you expect this to be? They were spotted by some people, who released it online, where people became outraged that these freaks have met with a consul, who oversees an attempt to instill a color revolution in Russia.
The government wasn't even involved.
Quote:
So I feel particularly sorry for Yabloko people - they are the "old guard," that never received any foreign funds
Liberasts don't have a place in Russia...
Quote:
"Private hotel " - that's what it's called now? Right.
2. The new law will force NGOs financed from abroad to state this. Nothing more. It was caused by the scandal behind Golos (the biggest player in the "white revolution"), when its emails with the US State Department were hacked and released.
What kind of scare, if he had hundreds of thousands supports, ready to rip apart anyone, who'd march on Kremlin - and such people were numbered in hundreds, thousands maybe.
And what kind of an example do you expect this to be? They were spotted by some people, who released it online, where people became outraged that these freaks have met with a consul, who oversees an attempt to instill a color revolution in Russia.
The government wasn't even involved.
Liberasts don't have a place in Russia...
This BS doesn't even has a Russian version. No wonder, since proganda died as soon as the owner showed up.
That's facts:
Everything else is propaganda.
Then America is a 3rd world country
To begin with - Yabloko never fell under the definition you are trying to ascribe to it; they are dinosaurs, the leftovers of the former Soviet intelligentsia that was courted by the US during Soviet times and betrayed by them in the 90ies. You obviously don't know much and the two TV channels that "bash Putin day and night" will never explain either to you or to general public what their stand was, or what their program is - you know, authoritarian regime has its own distinguished features and I am not about to get into discussion of pluses and minuses of Russian opposition vs Putin and Co. It's an English-speaking forum after all, not the Russian one.
As for the rest - hon, to be honest the weather is nice lately, and we have a splendid bike trail that I like to hit quite often. You have tendency to dump here all kind of unsubstantiated claims, typing ten thousands words per minute whatever suits you, me on another hand - I have to come up with thoughtful and intelligent explanations why you are wrong as usual, to find some links and pictures ( colorful minding you ) to refute your points in details, so I don't see how I'm getting a fair deal here.
I look marvelous at my old ripe age, and I'd rather ornate the bike trail with my glorious presence than keep on pointing you at your obvious fallacies. Therefore come up with more deep and substantial thoughts please, because otherwise - alas...
To begin with - Yabloko never fell under the definition you are trying to ascribe to it; they are dinosaurs, the leftovers of the former Soviet intelligentsia
Almost all Russian politicians are "leftover of the former Soviet intelligentsia".
In 1993's massacre Yavlinsky actively supported Yeltsin! How can you say some good about a person doing this??? Not to mention that he is pro-liberalism.
Quote:
You obviously don't know much and the two TV channels that "bash Putin day and night" will never explain either to you or to general public what their stand was, or what their program is
You should definitely have some feelings for Navalny, since he is so visibly anti-Putin... Well, Navalny was in Yabloko once, and that's what he said:
Ok, Navalny is the least trusted source, but he didn't say anything new - all of this is known to all interested.
Quote:
I have to come up with thoughtful and intelligent explanations why you are wrong as usual, to find some links and pictures ( colorful minding you ) to refute your points in details, so I don't see how I'm getting a fair deal here.
Why don't you stop finding "thoughtful and intelligent explanations", and just be direct and concise? Like I did, when Ruth claimed that Russia is like an Indian reservation - I just posted lots of photos.
As for your links... You really shouldn't post the BS of the "yellow press". Or American media.
BTW, old Soviet intelligentsia is getting hit... for being too old. That's a number one criticism towards commies - what to say about Yavlinsky, who rules the party singlehandedly... Russia needs young leaders, and it's getting them, slowly.
Let's begin with changing your tone a bit, because I am not your subordinate, I am not a subject of interrogation and most of all - you are nowhere in a position of moral superiority to command me what I should or shouldn't read and what I should or shouldn't think. Because as far as I'm concerned, a big part of today's Russian press falls under the category of yellow press ( just an example.)
Now once we settle that, let's proceed to Yavlinsky.
When you are saying that "almost all Russian politicians are leftover of the former Soviet intelligentsia" - you are wrong, because the majority of people who were making politics back in the nineties were not Soviet intelligentsia, but Soviet bureaucracy, apparatchiks, communist bosses - you can name them as you wish. The changes in the Soviet society were initiated from above, not from below, and Soviet intelligetsia for the most part was happy that changes were coming, however they didn't have much of control over the situation, as anybody else.
Yavlinsky was one of the very few people who were representing the interests of this particular class and he was glad to support Yeltzin, whom he saw as the best chance for implementation of his economic reforms, that were long overdue. Don't forget that Yavlinsky originally was not a politician but a world-class economist, and economic reforms were his major interest.
You can't blame Yavlinsky or anyone else that people en mass, overwhelmingly were supporting Yeltzin at that time (during the events of the 1993 that is.) You are condemning him now, from the present point in history as many people do and rightfully so, but back in those days he was a legend, a hero, who was destined to take Russia out of the crisis and to the new heights. No one knew at that point about American advisers sitting in Kremlin, about the decisions that were in the making and that Yeltzin was leading the country straight to a disaster instead. In fact he didn't know that himself, because he was too unworldly and uneducated in broader sense of this word as many party bosses, and he indeed was one of them. Yavlinsky however was intelligent and educated, he knew what reforms were needed under the circumstaces and why, and as I've said he was hoping that Yeltzin would accept his plan, that's why he gave him his support. Unfortunately Yeltzin had other plans. Yavlinsky's proposal ( very sound and practical) has been rejected, Gaidar has been put in his place as a chief economist, since he was ready to follow the directions of the IMF, and the disaster called "economic reforms" striked. Those who supported these Gaidar's reforms backed by Yeltzin became later known as "liberasts" but Yavlinsky and part of Soviet intelligentzia that was fighting against the suppressive Soviet ideology, hoping for the better future and had no parts in these reforms, was painted with the same brush and demonized. Yavlinsky is a weak politician, he made plenty mistakes, but he is not guilty of things you are accusing him by default.
May be if you read more about what took place in that time, you'll have better understanding of the situation.
Now about Navalny - I don't have any definite opinion about him at this point for a number of reasons that I am not going to discuss now. What needs to be mentioned is that Navalny was expelled from Yabloko for nationalism, so I don't see how his opinion about this particular party can be the most objective.
Starikov himself whose blog is dedicated to smearing Yabloko ( the link you've provided) has been dubbed on numerous occasions as "пикейный жилет" - a philistine who is trying to pass for a world-class economist, so I can't take his account seriously as well.
PS.
Quote:
Why don't you stop finding "thoughtful and intelligent explanations", and just be direct and concise? Like I did, when Ruth claimed that Russia is like an Indian reservation - I just posted lots of photos.
Ok, I can be "concise" and post some photos;
This is Russia few kilometers away from glitz and glamor of few big cities on your pictures.
That's what Ruth most likely was referring to as "Indian reservations."
And?
Last edited by erasure; 08-07-2012 at 12:13 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
) to refute your points in details, so I don't see how I'm getting a fair deal here. 
