Are Irish/Welsh/Scottish and English people still separate ethnicities in your opinion? (characteristics, Norwegian)

[saxonwold]

The people of central, southern, eastern England, southeastern Scotland, Shetlands, Orkneys, Herbrides isles are genetically quite similar to the people of the northern Netherlands(Friesland, Groningen), northwestern Germany and Scandinavia. Due to the fact those regions received the greatest Germanic infusion in the British Isles from the Anglo-Saxon times through to the era of Viking invasions. While on the other hand Wales and especially Cornwall are similar to Ireland on one hand and on the other northwestern France (especially coastal Bretagne, Normandy). Southwestern England also has a strong Celtic or pre-Germanic element in its population, if a Roman element persisted in the Brythonic population, this region would have it. Southwest England is less blue-eyed than than Wales but still lighter-eyed than northwestern France which is the bluest-eyed region of France. The Irish, Welsh, Cornish and most Scots are similar people(the same way Scandinavians are) but not the English but not identical due to the the Irish and Scots belong to the Gaelic branch, while the Welsh, Cornish belong to the Brittonic group. Nevertheless all the British Isles are overall similar to the people of the Netherlands, Denmark and Norway.

[John-UK]

Saxonwold. I agree with you. Those in Denmark/Norway/Sweden have formed over centuries, a group called Scandinavians. The people of the British Isles over centuries have formed a distinctive set of people, the British (that may rile some Irishmen ). The people of the British Isles and Scandinavia may largely have the same origins but they have split.

[Bernie20]

Originally Posted by John-UK

Saxonwold. I agree with you. Those in Denmark/Norway/Sweden have formed over centuries, a group called Scandinavians. The people of the British Isles over centuries have formed a distinctive set of people, the British (that may rile some Irishmen ). The people of the British Isles and Scandinavia may largely have the same origins but they have split.

Anyone that looks into genetics knows this is the case. Also a great book called The Origins of the Irish by J.P Mallory is a really good read on the subject.


Amazon.com: The Origins of the Irish (9780500051757): J. P. Mallory: Books

Yes whether people like it or not Irish are genetically the same as other British populations. The only difference would be that Ireland was a bit more isolated at times but Irish originally all came from the larger island of Britain. The closest population to the Irish are West Scots. This has been proven by genetics and archaeology. The east coast of Britain has had more recent settlers from Europe but all the populations cluster together due to similar origins.

Makes you wonder what all the discrimination was about doesn't it? That's politics for you.

[Mini-apple-less]

Originally Posted by Bernie20

Anyone that looks into genetics knows this is the case. Also a great book called The Origins of the Irish by J.P Mallory is a really good read on the subject.


Amazon.com: The Origins of the Irish (9780500051757): J. P. Mallory: Books

Yes whether people like it or not Irish are genetically the same as other British populations. The only difference would be that Ireland was a bit more isolated at times but Irish originally all came from the larger island of Britain. The closest population to the Irish are West Scots. This has been proven by genetics and archaeology. The east coast of Britain has had more recent settlers from Europe but all the populations cluster together due to similar origins.

Makes you wonder what all the discrimination was about doesn't it? That's politics for you.

I wonder how close people in Lancashire, Cumbria etc are to the Irish.

[Bernie20]

Originally Posted by valsteele

I wonder how close people in Lancashire, Cumbria etc are to the Irish.

Well so many Irish have went to Lancashire in recent times so I'd say quite a bit. As I've said in the previous post the only thing separating Irish populations from the British are that at times Ireland was more isolated from Europe but populations have been going back and forth for centuries between Britain and Ireland so that the line has become very blurred.

Even places like the Wirral got recycled Vikings from Dublin so there seems to be some truth that Brian Boru ran the Vikings out of Ireland.

[Mini-apple-less]

Originally Posted by Bernie20

Well so many Irish have went to Lancashire in recent times so I'd say quite a bit. As I've said in the previous post the only thing separating Irish populations from the British are that at times Ireland was more isolated from Europe but populations have been going back and forth for centuries between Britain and Ireland so that the line has become very blurred.

Even places like the Wirral got recycled Vikings from Dublin so there seems to be some truth that Brian Boru ran the Vikings out of Ireland.

I read something that said Ireland is about 10 percent continental European, partly due to the Norwegians raiding it and such but mostly due to English and Scots being planted into there over the centuries.

[hobbesdj]

The English and Lowland Scots are culturally quite similar to the Scandinavians, Dutch, and other "Germanic" peoples of Northwestern Europe. There is certainly a great difference between the English of Kent and the Irish of Galway. A couple of centuries ago the English and Irish would be as different as the Germans and Italians, but nowadays the Irish have mostly assimilated and replaced their own culture with the dominant English (and Lowland Scottish) cultures. Overall, the people of the British Isles today are relatively similar, although strong cultural differences remain.

[Bernie20]

Originally Posted by hobbesdj

The English and Lowland Scots are culturally quite similar to the Scandinavians, Dutch, and other "Germanic" peoples of Northwestern Europe. There is certainly a great difference between the English of Kent and the Irish of Galway. A couple of centuries ago the English and Irish would be as different as the Germans and Italians, but nowadays the Irish have mostly assimilated and replaced their own culture with the dominant English (and Lowland Scottish) cultures. Overall, the people of the British Isles today are relatively similar, although strong cultural differences remain.

Culturally they would have been different centuries ago but not genetically. Whether those populations were "Celtic" or "Germanic" genetically they are very similar.

The replacement of Irish culture wasn't exactly consensual. It was due to a long period of colonisation and very extreme discouragement. It's not like they "replaced their own culture".

[hobbesdj]

Originally Posted by Bernie20

Culturally they would have been different centuries ago but not genetically. Whether those populations were "Celtic" or "Germanic" genetically they are very similar.

The replacement of Irish culture wasn't exactly consensual. It was due to a long period of colonisation and very extreme discouragement. It's not like they "replaced their own culture".

Like I said, I was speaking culturally, not genetically.

But if we are to talk about ancestry, the English look quite different from the Irish to me. I know many like to say that the English, Irish, Scottish, and Welsh are all the same, but to me the English (and some Scots) clearly look a lot like people from Scandinavia, West Germany, Holland, etc. Obviously not exact copies, but very similar. Perhaps they are a halfway point between continental Northern Europe and Ireland. There is a definitely an "English look" that I instantly recognize in England, the US, and Australia, but I definitely don't find in Ireland. And this makes a lot of sense considering that the history books tell us that the English are largely descended the Angles and Saxons from the area of Frisia and Southern Denmark.

[Bernie20]

Originally Posted by hobbesdj

Like I said, I was speaking culturally, not genetically.

But if we are to talk about ancestry, the English look quite different from the Irish to me. I know many like to say that the English, Irish, Scottish, and Welsh are all the same, but to me the English (and some Scots) clearly look a lot like people from Scandinavia, West Germany, Holland, etc. Obviously not exact copies, but very similar. Perhaps they are a halfway point between continental Northern Europe and Ireland. There is a definitely an "English look" that I instantly recognize in England, the US, and Australia, but I definitely don't find in Ireland. And this makes a lot of sense considering that the history books tell us that the English are largely descended the Angles and Saxons from the area of Frisia and Southern Denmark.

Here is a collage of people from Co. Mayo who took part in the National Genograph Project.



I bet you don't really have a good idea of what Irish look like. It is very difficult to tell people apart. Are you an American by any chance?

Interesting you say Frisia because on Gedmatch I and my family get either North Dutch or Frisia a lot despite being fully Irish Celts.

This is my brother's K23b on Gedmatch

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Irish @ 2.261916
2 Frisian @ 2.505198
3 Dutch @ 2.778208
4 English @ 3.307590
5 Belgian @ 3.617860
6 North_European @ 4.158943
7 South_German @ 5.308599
8 CEU @ 5.539104
9 English_Kent_GBR @ 5.839112
10 German-Volga @ 5.857182
11 British @ 6.159924
12 English_Cornwall_GBR @ 6.256845
13 Norwegian_East @ 6.289495
14 Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR @ 6.353488
15 Welsh @ 6.669581
16 Icelandic @ 6.953556
17 Norwegian_West @ 7.155996
18 Dane @ 7.353782
19 North_German @ 7.431414
20 Orcadian @ 7.481358

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Dutch +50% Irish @ 0.593731


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Dutch +25% Irish +25% Irish @ 0.593731


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Dutch + Dutch + Irish + Irish @ 0.593731
2 Dutch + Dutch + Frisian + Irish @ 0.969406
3 Dutch + Frisian + Irish + Irish @ 1.056763
4 Dutch + Irish + Irish + Irish @ 1.131301
5 Dutch + Dutch + English + Irish @ 1.215240
6 Dane + Irish + Irish + Irish @ 1.288896
7 Dutch + Frisian + Frisian + Irish @ 1.303067
8 Dutch + Dutch + English_Cornwall_GBR + Irish @ 1.325116
9 Belgian + Dutch + Irish + Irish @ 1.345949
10 CEU + Dutch + Dutch + Irish @ 1.350276
11 Irish + Irish + Irish + Swede_Saami @ 1.362659
12 Dane + Frisian + Irish + Irish @ 1.370775
13 Dutch + English + Frisian + Irish @ 1.385557
14 British + Dutch + Dutch + Irish @ 1.389883
15 Dutch + English + Irish + Irish @ 1.392081
16 English_Cornwall_GBR + Irish + Irish + Swede_Saami @ 1.394454
17 Belgian + Dutch + Dutch + Irish @ 1.406531
18 Dutch + Dutch + English_Kent_GBR + Irish @ 1.416055
19 Irish + Irish + Irish + North_German @ 1.420758
20 Dutch + Dutch + Irish + North_European @ 1.438734

Done.