Is there a genetic connection between the Hallstatt culture and British Isles? (English, climate)

[Bernie20]

Originally Posted by saxonwold

Who do you think import culture, especially in those primitive times, when there was no books/televisions/common religions, it is people, you seem to equate those times as if it were today. Yes there were movements of populations from Central Europe, before they got to Britain/Ireland their nothernmost frontier, they came through France and the Low Countries. It wasn't direct but gradual of course. Celts spread into Western Europe before going north into the British Isles and others south into Iberia. This is why we could find similarities not only linguistically and culturally, but also genetically in populations where Gaelic or any other Celtic language might still be spoken today in Scotland, Ireland, Britanny etc... You seem not to know that there was much more population movements in Central Europe than there was in Britain, especially Ireland. Celts were 'pushed' westwards, later Germans as well.

There was much more population movements in Eastern and Central Europe than in places like Britain and Ireland. People that came to Ireland tended to stay there because where else could they go? Only to Iceland and North America.

[Pardillo]

You would need to tell him first that Ireland is an Island detached from the world during thousands of years, etc, etc. Somebody that says that there was no culture in antiquity because there were no books is not for real. I wonder if such a luminaire ever went to school, a real school, not a methodist school or home schooling.

[saxonwold]

Originally Posted by Pardillo

Right, it was a culture, quite recent one too. No evidence of Celtic invasions in those areas. In the case of Spain, it was a cultural invasion in the form of metal smelting and language, the "Celtic-Iberian" language that used the Iberian alphabet inspired in the Greek alphabet....yet to be "cracked"...

The supposed Celtic "genes" were already in those areas thousands of year before (R1b). Iberians and Basques were majoritarily Indoeuropean, but their language was not....so it seems that is was a recent cultural invasion.

I have nothing personal against you as being a Spaniard, but we have to know facts. Yes there is evidence of Celtic invasions even ancient writings and accounts speak about them. That is why in your own nation, you have the region of Galicia which is named after the Celts who came into Spain by way of 'Gallia'/Gaul. Then we have what is called Celtiberian people, correct. The R1b did not originate in Spain, it came into Spain by way of France again and it was a totally different subclade from that which mainly entered Britain, Ireland and other parts of northwestern Europe. R1b doesn't mean Basque/Iberian, it entered Europe from a southeastern direction, then from Central Europe it went into western,southern and northern Europe. Areas of Europe which have high R1b today, just received less invasions in comparison of those who are in a more eastern direction. These areas are at the 'end of Europe' in the British Isles for example. Indoeuropean people kept moving westwards, see the R1a group came after the R1b, and as a result is more common in eastern parts of Europe. Nevertheless there are different subclades as well. It was gradual invasions. The British Isles were one of the last areas of Europe to be colonized due to their geographical position and show much less genetical diversity than most of Europe. It's much more easier to actually study invasions there than in a place like France/Germany which are more complex. The map below illustrate well how the R1b came to western part of Europe quite well.We see how the L21 subclade came into Britain, it has nothing to do with an 'Atlantic' fairy tale, that 'old school' theory when less was known about the R1b.

[saxonwold]

Red hair whether phenotypically or genotypically seems to be more frequent in populations which are dominantly R1b-L21 subclade and that's a fact. Anyone should take a look at the L21 distribution map of Europe and will see it is just that.

[saxonwold]

British Isles were one of the last places in Europe to be colonized by humans. It was also the northern most place for Celts to conquer. Proto-Celtic people from the Balkans to Central Europe in 2500B.C.Equipped with horses, bronze weapons, they quickly conquered Western Europe from Iberia to the British Isles. Around 600-400B.C., the classical Hallststatt culture spread from the Alps to most of Western and Central Europe. Genetical studies determined most of the Ancient Celts belonged to the Y-DNA halogroup R1b-S116 and its subclades, two early Bronze Age brought the L21 subclade to northwestern France and the British Isles, the DF27 southwestern France and Iberia. Another one not well known is the S28/U152 is linked to the expansion of the Hallstatt and La Tene Celts as well as Italic tribes.

By looking at paternal lineages, we looking at we could call the Celtic DNA which are S116/P312. Proto-Celtic-speakers might have indigenous language in Gascony and Iberian languages. So Basques are included in this map as well.

[Pardillo]

So let's me see.......now you are saying that your Germanic/Viking/Teutonic redhaired fairies are not for real? Are you suggesting that Catalonia, the Basque Country, Bretagne and Aquitaine are far more related to Scotland, Wales, England and Ireland that your beatific Teutons from Thule?

[saxonwold]

Originally Posted by Pardillo

So let's me see.......now you are saying that your Germanic/Viking/Teutonic redhaired fairies are not for real? Are you suggesting that Catalonia, the Basque Country, Bretagne and Aquitaine are far more related to Scotland, Wales, England and Ireland that your beatific Teutons from Thule?

There's not much to say to you. The difference between Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Cornwall to an extent Britanny/Bretagne is that their dominant R1b subclade is L21 and that it's a fact red-haired people are more common in Ireland, Scotland, Wales than anywhere else in Europe, though they don't make up the majority of those populations.







What is more common in Aquitaine, the Basques areas, Catalonia, and northern Iberia is the R1b-DF 27 subclade. Nothing personal, but stop confusing the British Isles with Iberia. R1b haplotype did not originate in Iberia, but much further east.

[saxonwold]

A summary drawn out of the European Journal of Human Genetics 18( 2010) which made specific studies on haplotype diversity in seven European populations from Ireland, Scotland, Sweden, Portugal, Bulgaria, southeast and southern England and Utah( since most whites there are of European are of English ancestry).

Colm T. O'Dushlaine, Derek Morris, Valentina Moskvina, George Kirov, International Schizophrenia Consortium, Michael Gill, Aiden Corvin, James F. Wilson, and Gianpiero L. Cavalleri. "Population structure and genome-wide patterns of variation in Ireland and Britain." European Journal of Human Genetics 18 (2010): pages 1248-1254. First published online on June 23, 2010. The researchers studied the genetics of 3,654 including people from Ireland, the United Kingdom (including Aberdeen, Scotland), Sweden, Portugal, Bulgaria, and the American state of Utah (whose people are largely of English descent). Haplotype diversity was found to be lower in Ireland and Scotland than in southern Europe. Also, Irish people have higher levels of linkage disequilibrium and homozygosity compared to other Europeans. The results showed that the population of Ireland has been relatively isolated throughout the millennia. The article notes that Scottish people are "intermediate between the Irish and English cohorts" in principal component analysis. British and Irish people are predominantly "Northwestern" European in origin but also partly "Scandinavian" (moreso for English people than Irish people) and have relatively small amounts of "Iberian" and "Balkan" ancestry.

[saxonwold]

The map here shows you the spread how the Hallstatt culture spread until it reached Britain it northernmost frontier.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...att_LaTene.png

[waviking24]

The red hair in my L21 paternal line must have been bred out over time. No traces of it in old photos and I'm not even a carrier of any of the mutations fortunately. Thick dark brown hair and eyes in my line.