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View Poll Results: Gun control laws in my country
Yes, I approve of the way my country handles gun control. They are strict enough. 29 56.86%
No, I do not approve of the way my country handles gun control. I would like to have more freedom. 12 23.53%
Yes, I approve of the way my country handles gun control. The laws are lax enough. 1 1.96%
No, I don't approve of the way my country handles gun control. I would like to have stricter gun laws. 9 17.65%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-18-2012, 07:24 AM
 
Location: Leeds, UK
22,139 posts, read 29,453,523 times
Reputation: 8819

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It's to my understanding that this thread is about gun control and gun laws in Europe, right? I'm not sure why there's a heated debate about the violent crime rate in Europe when it's totally irrelevant to this thread.

The US has a high rate of homicides per 100,000 people. It has a high rate of firearm related deaths per 100,000 people. Gun control in the UK has resulted in one of the lowest levels of homicide and firearm related deaths in the world, and it has fallen dramatically since guns were made illegal without a license.

Not only that, but the level of rape in the UK for every 100,000 people is also lower than in the US by quite a margin, even though these women don't have guns to protect themselves.. perhaps the mindset is just totally different? Perhaps people in the US are more likely to be clinically insane than their UK counterparts? Just a thought, it would explain why the US leads the world in serial killers.

As for the US being less civilised, it isn't just about crime but about the culture of these people. The US is a highly religious country, where most people believe the creation story over evolution, where people are generally not supportive of homosexuality, where healthcare is overpriced and where education is substandard, and these are just for starters (there's plenty more where that came from..). This is combined with a high rate of murder enough to rival some third world nations, especially in New Orleans or Detroit, and a disturbing mindset where people love the electric chair and think shooting anything that enters your house is considered freedom in the highest order. It should come as no surprise that the US is viewed as being a less civilised nation compared to Europe, regardless of the economic status of these countries right now (I see you mentioned Italy being a sinking ship, I presume a take on the sunk Concordia ship.. )

The UK and Australia, and many European nations such as Germany and Austria, may have overall higher violent crime rates (such as a fist to the face or a knee to the stomach) than the US due to the large public drinking culture in these nations, but that's not the purpose of this thread, is it?

Last edited by dunno what to put here; 08-18-2012 at 07:38 AM..
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Old 08-18-2012, 08:35 AM
 
14,250 posts, read 17,848,223 times
Reputation: 13807
Thing is .... in Europe, gun ownership, gun control or the ability to carry weapons is just not the political hot button that it is in the USA. Most Europeans really don't think about it too much and most are pretty comfortable with the level of control their countries operate.

Neither is the situation as absolute as many Americans imagine. As a 16 years old, I was taught to shoot at high school. We had a compulsory CCF (Combined Cadet Force) and an indoor rifle range on school premises. I shot .22s (fun) and .303 (not fun). Hiking in France, I have walked past guys with rifles slung over their shoulders because it was hunting season. Living and working in Switzerland it was common to see guys with their army weapons slung over their shoulder either on their way to service or to the shooting range (compulsory for them).

Too many Americans seem to have an obsession with guns. It is as if they are another necessary appendage to make them feel like real men (or women). That strikes me as very unhealthy.
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Old 08-18-2012, 01:59 PM
 
2,234 posts, read 5,464,349 times
Reputation: 2081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Threestep View Post
Come to DFW and go to WallMart:>) My first trip to Kroger was interesting - I was bare of ... no boots, hat, holster. Now the morning check list runs - Ipad, phone, lunch, gun, coffee.
No reason to call me a liar. The whole neighborhood thought it was funny.
Texas isn't an open carry state. You have to conceal the gun. You can, of course, see the holster. So you can only assume the person is carrying a gun. This is why I was talking about the "outline" above. Is that what you saw? I don't recall ever seeing somebody at a mall or Kroger carrying a gun. Maybe the person was just obese and you just thought it was a gun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by easthome View Post
Are you actually saying that because the UK / Australia has stricter gun control laws it means that they are less 'free' societies!!!!!! un-believable!!!!! You can own a gun in the UK if you have a licence and a good reason for owning one - why on earth would you want one otherwise!!!!!! You are able to walk the streets, go to the shopping centre or go to college in the UK without having a lunatic shooting at you - to me that makes the society more 'free' than a country that is continually having maniacs shooting college kids just because they want the notoriaty!!
That's like saying you can own a gun in Germany. Of course the government does issue licenses. But from what I understand, it's nearly impossible to get one. I think that's the same in most countries. Of course they issue licenses. Police officers need them.

By the way, this thread isn't supposed to be a gun control debate. I was interested in the opinions ( about the existing state of gun control), not in the pros and cons of gun control. And, maybe, what people use to possibly defend themselves.
I kind of want to know why Geggo, kidyankee764 voted for #4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
Oh oh oh! I can answer that! I was walking in a more quiet part of England and was drive-by assaulted one night when a couple of stupid kids threw a half-filled plastic bottle at my head. Ouch. ****ers drove off before I can get their license plate numbers and since I don't know anything about European car models...lost cause to call the police who won't give a damn anyway.

But, hey what do I know? I'm just an uncivilized American that has to dance to my bullet hole riddled car while dodging automatic gunfire and mass murdering lunatics everywhere I go. Oh hold on, let me get my rocket launcher ready in case I have to blow up some weirdo who looked at me funny I wish I was one of those civilized Europeans who think they know everything because they and their countrymen don't own firearms!

Got mace?
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Old 08-18-2012, 02:42 PM
 
Location: WA
1,445 posts, read 1,924,223 times
Reputation: 1508
Quote:
Originally Posted by italianuser View Post
Do you really think that I dislike Texas and red states due to the gun culture?
Well that sure would seem to be a huge part of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by italianuser View Post
I strongly dislike such places due to SEVERAL factors: even if there wasn't a gun culture, I would still think that they overall "offer" a bad quality of life.
Well, quality of life encompasses a pretty wide range of socio-economic and emotional factors--are you really well-versed enough on this subject to actually be making assumptions about our quality of life in red-states? Why do I find myself doubting that?

Interestingly, when U.S. states have been ranked according to quality of life (personal income, health, local community satisfaction, crime, etc.), traditionally red States fare just as well as blue states, sharing 5 spots in the top 10 (Utah, in fact, was ranked 1st two years ago). As of 2012, North Dakota, South Dakota and Wyoming offer better quality of life than the "bluest" states in the country.

I hope you realize that turning this into a red state vs. blue state quality of life discussion wouldn't really help your case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by italianuser View Post
And, no, I'm not naive and I don't think that the majority of americans live in fear and in imminent, constant danger of death by gunfire: but I am certainly surprised by the indifference and apathy to violence... as far as my experience is concerned, it seems to me that too many americans see such pointless acts of violence as the price to pay to be "free": they have accepted gun massacres almost as a fact of life.
Sorry, I couldn't stand living surrounded by such mentality.
This has nothing to do with a general indifference to tragic violence--many of us simply resent the fact that all of us should have to virtually lose a constitutional freedom because of the heinous actions of a small few. The notion that the whole of American society should sacrifice a traditional civil liberty for the crimes of people like James Holmes, Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, Seung-Hui Cho, etc., is thoroughly absurd, and thankfully enough of us in the U.S. understand that.

Not living in fear of shooting massacres shows no more "indifference" or "apathy" than not living in fear of political terrorism from foreign nationals--I don't support giving up my constitutional rights in the name of anti-terrorism, and I don't support surrendering my constitutional rights in favor of the unprecedented belief that gun-control is going to save my life (which isn't statistically in any danger because of firearm availability).

As for not wanting to live amongst us and our apparently dangerous mentality, well, I'm pleased to say that I, for the most part, don't have to be surrounded en masse by the bizarre thinking you demonstrate. To be sure, we do have gun-grabbers in the U.S.; however, they always lose (though I shouldn't be overly confident that they always will--they're far too conniving to be underestimated).
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Old 08-18-2012, 02:46 PM
 
Location: WA
1,445 posts, read 1,924,223 times
Reputation: 1508
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunno what to put here View Post
The fact that Montguy has quoted the Daily Mail, the gutter of all tabloids in the UK, says to me that he has very little idea what he's talking about.
I don't see the Daily Mail as being gutter-oriented to any greater extent than the BBC, London Guardian, Telegraph, etc., but would it be of any significance to you that the aforementioned "news" outlets reported the same story?
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Old 08-18-2012, 03:11 PM
 
5,764 posts, read 11,593,649 times
Reputation: 3864
Quote:
not JUST homicides
Homicides are the only crime that can be compared across national boundaries with any degree of accuracy. All other crimes are subject to such enormous variation in reporting rates and classification standards that comparisons are useless. Murder is all we have to go by. And generally, the more lawless and criminal an area is in general, the higher its murder rate will be. Higher murder rates generally correlate to a higher rate of general criminality.

Anyway, considering that the annual per capita murder rate in England and Wales last year was 2.6 times lower than Montana's rate (and 4.8 times lower than the US as a whole), you can see why many citizens there don't feel that copying US firearms laws would be a great idea.

Gun laws tend to be driven by local concerns more than anything else. I wouldn't pretend to argue that the gun laws in my state should be extended anywhere else, let alone foreign countries.
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Old 08-18-2012, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Leeds, UK
22,139 posts, read 29,453,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montguy View Post
I don't see the Daily Mail as being gutter-oriented to any greater extent than the BBC, London Guardian, Telegraph, etc., but would it be of any significance to you that the aforementioned "news" outlets reported the same story?
You don't live here, you're not subject to the drivel the Daily Mail publishes, such as stories about evil immigrants stealing jobs. Yes, I'd be more inclined to believe a story published in a more sensible paper such as the Telegraph or the Guardian, but all media outlets are guilty of latching onto negative news stories.

UK: more dangerous than South Africa.. yeah right, give me a break.
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Old 08-19-2012, 01:14 AM
 
1,097 posts, read 1,588,213 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Montguy View Post
Interestingly, when U.S. states have been ranked according to quality of life (personal income, health, local community satisfaction, crime, etc.), traditionally red States fare just as well as blue states, sharing 5 spots in the top 10 (Utah, in fact, was ranked 1st two years ago). As of 2012, North Dakota, South Dakota and Wyoming offer better quality of life than the "bluest" states in the country.
I hope you realize that turning this into a red state vs. blue state quality of life discussion wouldn't really help your case.

I honestly don't give a s**t about such lists: I don't like red states at all and I will never relocate there again.
Period.
I didn't even appreciate Florida, Nevada, Arizona and South Carolina as tourist destinations: beautiful natural sceneries... and awful cities. And as far as the people are concerned... well... too many rednecks and whitetrash

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montguy View Post
This has nothing to do with a general indifference to tragic violence--many of us simply resent the fact that all of us should have to virtually lose a constitutional freedom because of the heinous actions of a small few. The notion that the whole of American society should sacrifice a traditional civil liberty for the crimes of people like James Holmes, Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, Seung-Hui Cho, etc., is thoroughly absurd, and thankfully enough of us in the U.S. understand that.

Not living in fear of shooting massacres shows no more "indifference" or "apathy" than not living in fear of political terrorism from foreign nationals--I don't support giving up my constitutional rights in the name of anti-terrorism, and I don't support surrendering my constitutional rights in favor of the unprecedented belief that gun-control is going to save my life (which isn't statistically in any danger because of firearm availability).

As for not wanting to live amongst us and our apparently dangerous mentality, well, I'm pleased to say that I, for the most part, don't have to be surrounded en masse by the bizarre thinking you demonstrate. To be sure, we do have gun-grabbers in the U.S.; however, they always lose (though I shouldn't be overly confident that they always will--they're far too conniving to be underestimated).
Yawn... you'll never understand how many times I heard such paranoid arguments when I lived in TX... anyway, thanks: you remind me how lucky I am not to live there anymore
Have a nice day.
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Old 08-19-2012, 03:57 AM
 
Location: WA
1,445 posts, read 1,924,223 times
Reputation: 1508
Quote:
Originally Posted by tablemtn View Post
Homicides are the only crime that can be compared across national boundaries with any degree of accuracy. All other crimes are subject to such enormous variation in reporting rates and classification standards that comparisons are useless. Murder is all we have to go by. And generally, the more lawless and criminal an area is in general, the higher its murder rate will be. Higher murder rates generally correlate to a higher rate of general criminality.
Comparisons are only useless when you hold a massive bias in favor of superficially safer countries.

Whatever these supposed procedural differences are for reporting and categorizing crime, I fail to understand how, for example, the British Home Office's reports on assaults, rapes, robberies, etc. per capita are, apparently, null and void when compared to those of another country. Unless you care to explain how forcible rape, aggravated assault, robbery, arson, burglary, theft, and vehicle theft vary from country to country in their respective reporting rates and classification standards, then violent crime statistics continue to be relevant (and will also continue to be relevant for government agencies and international crime-reporting bureaus regardless of whether or not you agree).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tablemtn View Post
Anyway, considering that the annual per capita murder rate in England and Wales last year was 2.6 times lower than Montana's rate (and 4.8 times lower than the US as a whole), you can see why many citizens there don't feel that copying US firearms laws would be a great idea.
So where are you finding 2011 homicide statistics for Montana? I can't seem to locate them from MT.gov, Census, CIA or FBI statistics/reports.

Nevertheless, though, the average Montanan, as of 2010, is 978x more likely to be a victim of vandalistic property damage and 777x more likely to be a victim of theft than they are to become a homicide statistic (roughly 3/100,000, <1% of total violent crime victims/year). Homicide is by no means whatsoever an epidemic in this state, and you'd be wise to research the circumstances surrounding our relatively small number of murder victims (statistics pertaining to homicide by negligence are also of great importance here).

You're also putting forth the misleading implication that all of Montana's homicide victims were murdered via firearm (which is, of course, false)--firearms have, in recent years, typically been associated with ≈50% of homicides.

NOTE: none of MT's 26 homicide victims from 2010 were killed at random by a gun-wielding mass-murderer--just in case anyone was wondering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tablemtn View Post
Gun laws tend to be driven by local concerns more than anything else. I wouldn't pretend to argue that the gun laws in my state should be extended anywhere else, let alone foreign countries.
Well anything to impress your foreign superiors, right tablemtn?

And I consider myself extremely lucky to live in a state where leading politicians aren't quite sociopathic enough to fear-monger the general population into shredding a valuable civil liberty. I'm only too grateful that people like you are so marginilized in most parts of the country.

Last edited by Montguy; 08-19-2012 at 04:36 AM..
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Old 08-19-2012, 04:18 AM
 
Location: WA
1,445 posts, read 1,924,223 times
Reputation: 1508
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunno what to put here View Post
You don't live here, you're not subject to the drivel the Daily Mail publishes, such as stories about evil immigrants stealing jobs. Yes, I'd be more inclined to believe a story published in a more sensible paper such as the Telegraph or the Guardian, but all media outlets are guilty of latching onto negative news stories.

UK: more dangerous than South Africa.. yeah right, give me a break.
I think that even negative news stories have their place in a free press--wouldn't you agree? The truth isn't always comfortable...

And just curious...is it within your ability to prove your country's Home Office report to be false?
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