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Old 09-11-2012, 12:32 AM
 
Location: The heart of Cascadia
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I have a few ponderances.

1) Are the Russians partially Nordic and related to Scandinavians since Kievan Rus was founded by the Vikings?

2) When did Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians become separate ethnicites? Or are they even truly separate?

3) Are the ethnic Russians in Siberia, the Caucasus and Karelia/northern European Russia descended from people who spread around from the Moscow area or are they the descendants of non-Russian tribes who became Russian via cultural and linguistic assimilation?
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Old 09-11-2012, 01:55 AM
 
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1. Not Nordic. And Kievan Rus was founded by Russians. Maybe legendary Rurik, its first ruler, was a Viking - but not Russians (called Slavic at that time) themselves.
2. A century ago. Separation took place on paper. In reality they are (cultural) descendants of some Russian tribes.
2. Ethnic Russians are ethnic Russians, and they came from Europe. Mongoloid Siberian natives are not Russians. Caucasus is not Russian. Natives of Karelia are finns.
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Old 09-11-2012, 11:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by callmemaybe View Post
I have a few ponderances.

1) Are the Russians partially Nordic and related to Scandinavians since Kievan Rus was founded by the Vikings?

2) When did Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians become separate ethnicites? Or are they even truly separate?

3) Are the ethnic Russians in Siberia, the Caucasus and Karelia/northern European Russia descended from people who spread around from the Moscow area or are they the descendants of non-Russian tribes who became Russian via cultural and linguistic assimilation?

1. Yes, Russians are partially Nordic ( that means part of Russians carry Scandinavian genes, which is noticeable in some of them.) and yes, first administrative center of Russia ( i.e Kiev) was established by the Vikings.

2. Good question ( I might look into it,) and up until now I am not sure how truly "separate" they are.
My guess would be that the admixture of different ethnicities would be somewhat different depending on the area.

3. A lot of ethnic Russians in Siberia descended not necessarily from people who "spread around Moscow," but in fact from people from Western parts of of the country, because traditionally a lot of "troublemakers" were shipped to Siberia from the Western parts of Russia, plus many peasants moved to Siberia in search of new opportunities from more populous Western part of the country. Keep in mind big chunk of population that has been forceably resettled there through Stalin's times, ( Balts and Ukranians come to mind as well,) plus a lot of those who moved to Siberia during the WWII to work on war factories, when the Western part of the country was destroyed; a lot of them never returned to their previous towns/vilages. That's why probably the blue eyes and blond hair genes are as prominent in Siberia as in Western/Northern part of the country.
Now Caucasus is a slightly different story, because Russians who lived there were most likely from the Southern part of Russia originally, and later, in Soviet times they could of have been from any part of the country moving in different republics for whatever reasons.
I don't know much about Karelia, I can only make my guesses.
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Old 09-12-2012, 06:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by erasure View Post
a lot of "troublemakers" were shipped to Siberia from the Western parts of Russia
That's not how Siberia and the Far East were colonized.
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:40 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Russians are predominantly Indo-Iranian, carrying the R1a gene of the Scythians. In Western Russia, along the river systems that (more or less) connect St. Petersburg with the Black Sea, and especially around Ukraine, there was a more recent overlay of Viking genes.

The Belarussians genetically are Balts who assimilated culturally and linguistically to Slavs who later moved into the area. Parts of Belarus and Ukraine used to be part of Poland. Ukrainian is considered by some linguists to be a dialect of Polish. So some of the history of them being a separate ethnicity is tied up in that.

See erasure's post on #3. Siberia was colonized in part by religious sects who split off from "mainstream" Russian Orthodoxy. Others moved East to look for new opportunities, and relative freedom from the control of the state.

Don't confuse Indigenous Siberians with Russians. Those have not "become Russian". They're still Mongols or Turkic peoples or Manchus, or reindeer herders of various tribes, Inuit, Chukchi, etc., and still speak their Native languages. The people in the Caucasus are also Indigenous people, not at all Slavic. Karelia is inhabited by Finnic tribes that migrated into the area from near the Urals after the end of the Ice Age. There's a sort of archipelago of Finnic tribes speaking a variety of languages from that family, stretching from Karelia to just West of the Urals. It's not just Siberia and the Far East that have Indigenous (non-Slavic) people; Western Russia does, too. There are Saami in the North of Karelia, as well.
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Old 09-13-2012, 02:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Russians are predominantly Indo-Iranian, carrying the R1a gene of the Scythians. In Western Russia, along the river systems that (more or less) connect St. Petersburg with the Black Sea, and especially around Ukraine, there was a more recent overlay of Viking genes.
Then how it correlates with Russians being "Slavs," if in reality they are nothing but Indo-Iranian people?

Quote:
The Belarussians genetically are Balts who assimilated culturally and linguistically to Slavs who later moved into the area.
Then what can you make out of "krivichi," who Belorussians consider to be their ancestors?

Krivich - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
Parts of Belarus and Ukraine used to be part of Poland. Ukrainian is considered by some linguists to be a dialect of Polish. So some of the history of them being a separate ethnicity is tied up in that.
Separate ethnicity in what sense? From who exactly?
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Old 09-13-2012, 02:32 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Interesting about the Krivichi, thanks. Well, the Krivichi, according to the article, were Slavs who moved into the Belarus region in the 6th-12th Century. But Balts were in the area thousands of years, already. So this is what I mean by the Belarus people being fundamentally Balt with a later Slav overlay.

The reason "Scythology" is given a priority in Russia, in terms of funding for archeological exploration is precisely because they (and their predecessors) are considered ancestral to Russians. The Scythian connection is more ancient than the appearance of the Slavs around the Black Sea steppe region. AFAIK, the "Scythian" or "Indo-Iranian" layer is the most ancient one, then later mixed in are some Balkan characteristics, then when Slavs pushed north from what is now Ukraine, they mixed with Finno-Ugrian tribes in the region, as they pushed the Balts in the area back to the north, to their corner of the Baltic Sea region where they are today. So Russians have Scythian genetic markers, but also Finno-Ugrian, as well as south/southeast European markers. Here's some info: http://dienekes.ifreepages.com/blog/...es/000205.html

Responding to Question #2 in the OP. Whether Ukrainians & Belarussians are a separate ethnicity from Russians is highly debatable, but part of the basis for the claim that they are a separate ethnicity stems from their history with Poland.

Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 09-13-2012 at 03:10 PM..
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Old 09-13-2012, 03:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
The Belarussians genetically are Balts who assimilated culturally and linguistically to Slavs who later moved into the area. Parts of Belarus and Ukraine used to be part of Poland. Ukrainian is considered by some linguists to be a dialect of Polish. So some of the history of them being a separate ethnicity is tied up in that.
Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Poles, and some others are probably direct descendants of people, who inhabited Ukraine. Not that Ukrainians and Belorussians ever existed, genetically.
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Old 09-13-2012, 03:12 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Just saying, the Belarus' genetic substratum is baltic with a later layer of Slavic. They live in what was part of the original Baltic homeland.
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Old 09-13-2012, 03:33 PM
 
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[quote=Ruth4Truth;26079387]But Balts were in the area thousands of years, already.
When they were a part of Slavic-Balt people?

Quote:
So this is what I mean by the Belarus people being fundamentally Balt with a later Slav overlay.
Ancient Balts were destroyed...

Quote:
Just saying, the Belarus' genetic substratum is baltic with a later layer of Slavic.
Absolutely not:

Генофонд славян — Википедия

Both Ukrainians and Belarussians are Russians. Balts are not, although they are close.
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