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Old 11-01-2013, 06:30 AM
 
Location: SE UK
7,751 posts, read 6,579,797 times
Reputation: 5261

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mmega View Post
England wasn't extensively settled by Norman French invaders after 1066, unlike the Anglo-Saxon and Norse eras. The Normans themselves weren't akin to the French in general in being a Norse/French hybrid. England north of the Danelaw was a part of Scandinavia until that invasion, and a huge number of place names and the very genetics of the area shows this. There is a northern French crossover in phenotype, but there is a prominent Anglo-Saxon/Norse admixture which defines England and much of Scotland.
I think we are going off topic a little but are we supposed to believe that in the hundreds and hundreds of years between the 'major' immigrations into the UK Britons only ever copulated with other Britons? Are we also supposed to believe that when the Iberians / Romans / Vikings / Saxons / Normans etc etc came to these shore all Iberians / Romans / Vikings / Saxons / Normans etc etc were 'pure bred'? Do you think that the Normans that invaded in 1066 just might have had Roman DNA too!!??? I can't believe how so many people here are just looking at things in such a 'black & white' (excuse the pun) matter! People (including Britons) have a DNA mix FAR greater than you seem to think! every one of us has forefarthers numbering over a million if you go back just 20 generations - think of the maths - I think you will find that we are ALL much more closely related than you might care to think!

 
Old 11-01-2013, 09:52 PM
 
831 posts, read 2,700,123 times
Reputation: 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by saxonwold View Post
Germanic influence in England is not that great? The map is not rubbish, just that you have no clue of what Germanic and what is not.
Its not, the culture of UK is very insular, It doesnt feel germanic at all. England is much more like Scotland, wales or even Ireland culturally wise than like any germani european country.
 
Old 11-02-2013, 03:25 AM
 
Location: Near Tours, France about 4710'N 025'E
2,878 posts, read 4,050,526 times
Reputation: 1895
Quote:
Originally Posted by easthome View Post
! every one of us has forefarthers numbering over a million if you go back just 20 generations - think of the maths
that is wrong, for the simple reasons that the more you go far in a genealogic tree, the more you encounter the same persons in various parts of the tree. what you said could be true if everybody would have babies only with persons with whom they have no common ancestor at all. Which is impossible, since people are more or less ditant cousins actually. During centuries and thousands of years people used to reproduce within realtive small communities where all people were more quite close cousins actually.

I what you said was true the total number of people living on earth 20 centuries ago would have been one million times the number of people living now (if everyone had one million ancestors as you seem to think). Matematically everyone might have on million ancestors 20 centuries ago, but in reality this is much lower than that since most of those 'ancestors" were actually the same persons, just placed in different parts of your genealogic tree.
 
Old 11-02-2013, 03:37 AM
 
Location: Near Tours, France about 4710'N 025'E
2,878 posts, read 4,050,526 times
Reputation: 1895
Quote:
Originally Posted by easthome View Post
Do you realise that parts of England and parts of France were historically the same country don't you? And you seriously think that despite this fact plus the fact that they are neighbouring countries they don't have anything in common?
Your eternal wishes that Britain being was closely related to France ...

"parts of France" and England have never been the same countries! Is that what is thought in British schools?...

England was owned by a Normand court, that doesn't imply that those lands were the same country, populated by the same peoples and having the same culture as you would like it had been. It was not the case. England was owned by Normandy the same way that Hong-Kong was once owned by Britain in the 19th century (and weren't the same countries), it was just a feodal possession of the land.

Germany and Italy were part of the same empires for much longer time than Normandy and England did.
Would you say that Italy is the closest country to Germany. This is the same thing for France vs Britain.

You have a hard time to understand that:
1. Normandy at the time of William and the Conquerors was not France.
2. In medival times empires were land possesions, the concepts of "countries" or "nations" did not existed at that time. Basically the owning class did not had any relations with the cultures of the people who lived in the lands they ruled. This is only from the 18th to 19th centuries that the "nations" and "countries" began to emerge.

France and Britain are as different or as similar as are Italy and Germany, not less, not more. I don't understand why so many British or British descent people on this forum want to think that Britian would be a sort of variation of the french culture... I never had seen such attitude among Germans versus their southern neighbours in Italy... Germans are not jalous of the Italians it seems, unlike other peoples.
 
Old 11-02-2013, 05:43 AM
 
10 posts, read 11,055 times
Reputation: 15
Some people would argue that the Normans were basically French, as the orginal norse invaders who were granted the land of "Normandy" had been settled in the area for 3-4 generations, so spoke a version of French, there we are also Breton, Flemish and French soldiers who went with the "Normans" to settle in the UK.
Although numerically the Normans were small in number, they did have quite an impact on the history of Britain, and had a cultural impact also.
I do not think that England and France are as far apart as people think, but English people do have much more in common "cultrally" with the Danes and Dutch. However, there are plenty of links between Northern France and Southern England. Northern France is definitely not "Latin"
 
Old 11-02-2013, 09:12 AM
 
Location: SE UK
7,751 posts, read 6,579,797 times
Reputation: 5261
Quote:
Originally Posted by french user View Post
that is wrong, for the simple reasons that the more you go far in a genealogic tree, the more you encounter the same persons in various parts of the tree. what you said could be true if everybody would have babies only with persons with whom they have no common ancestor at all. Which is impossible, since people are more or less ditant cousins actually. During centuries and thousands of years people used to reproduce within realtive small communities where all people were more quite close cousins actually.

I what you said was true the total number of people living on earth 20 centuries ago would have been one million times the number of people living now (if everyone had one million ancestors as you seem to think). Matematically everyone might have on million ancestors 20 centuries ago, but in reality this is much lower than that since most of those 'ancestors" were actually the same persons, just placed in different parts of your genealogic tree.
EXACTLY!!! We all share a lot more common ancestors than people seem to think!! Do you now see! Do the maths yourself and you will see 20 generation is = to over a million forefathers therefore we share common forefathers in what is actually a short period of time!
 
Old 11-02-2013, 09:14 AM
 
Location: London, UK
9,992 posts, read 9,911,555 times
Reputation: 3473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveler86 View Post
Its not, the culture of UK is very insular, It doesnt feel germanic at all. England is much more like Scotland, wales or even Ireland culturally wise than like any germani european country.
Your correct!

Because Ireland, Wales and Scotland are too Germanic!!

British Isles is Germanic
 
Old 11-02-2013, 09:17 AM
 
Location: SE UK
7,751 posts, read 6,579,797 times
Reputation: 5261
Quote:
Originally Posted by french user View Post
Your eternal wishes that Britain being was closely related to France ...

"parts of France" and England have never been the same countries! Is that what is thought in British schools?...

England was owned by a Normand court, that doesn't imply that those lands were the same country, populated by the same peoples and having the same culture as you would like it had been. It was not the case. England was owned by Normandy the same way that Hong-Kong was once owned by Britain in the 19th century (and weren't the same countries), it was just a feodal possession of the land.

Germany and Italy were part of the same empires for much longer time than Normandy and England did.
Would you say that Italy is the closest country to Germany. This is the same thing for France vs Britain.

You have a hard time to understand that:
1. Normandy at the time of William and the Conquerors was not France.
2. In medival times empires were land possesions, the concepts of "countries" or "nations" did not existed at that time. Basically the owning class did not had any relations with the cultures of the people who lived in the lands they ruled. This is only from the 18th to 19th centuries that the "nations" and "countries" began to emerge.

France and Britain are as different or as similar as are Italy and Germany, not less, not more. I don't understand why so many British or British descent people on this forum want to think that Britian would be a sort of variation of the french culture... I never had seen such attitude among Germans versus their southern neighbours in Italy... Germans are not jalous of the Italians it seems, unlike other peoples.
Why would I wish Britain was related to garlic eating surrender monkeys! :-D . Joking aside surely if a Briton wanted to be associated with a European country they would have to chose Germany which outshines France in every aspect.
 
Old 11-02-2013, 12:52 PM
 
4,690 posts, read 8,518,592 times
Reputation: 1004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Traveler86 View Post
Its not, the culture of UK is very insular, It doesnt feel germanic at all. England is much more like Scotland, wales or even Ireland culturally wise than like any germani european country.
England and southeastern Scotland were culturally Germanic since Anglo-Saxon invasion, their Anglo-Saxon(English) culture, administration, literature, tradition, mythology was spread all over the British Isles through conquests and later to other parts of the New world in America, Canada, as well as in Australia and New Zealand. Actually early American colonies were based on traditional Anglo-Saxon law which is of Germanic tradition. Germanic culture doesn't only mean being in Germany, there are many other Germanic-speaking countries. It doesn't have to be totally identical to that of Germany/Netherlands due to the fact that Germanic tribes as everyone else could have modified their laws, cultures according their new lands as well. For example there is a difference between Low German culture which is closer to that of southern Scandinavian in comparison to the High Germanic culture which is more southerly. Actually Low German was closer to Old English and Frisian than to High German. Irish, Welsh, Scottish were Celtic cultures and quite distinct from that of the English. Irish, Welsh, Scottish adopted by force English culture.
Thus British culture is mainly Germanic but German. The Germanic tribes in Germany also borrowed pr some things from Slavs who lived in eastern parts, but that doesn't make them Slavic since they are predominantly Germanic, the same with Germanics in Scandinavia who might have borrowed here and there things from the neighboring northern people, the Saami/Lapplanders.

And what do you mean by your Atlantic culture? There is no such thing!
 
Old 11-02-2013, 02:12 PM
 
831 posts, read 2,700,123 times
Reputation: 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by french user View Post
Your eternal wishes that Britain being was closely related to France ...

"parts of France" and England have never been the same countries! Is that what is thought in British schools?...

England was owned by a Normand court, that doesn't imply that those lands were the same country, populated by the same peoples and having the same culture as you would like it had been. It was not the case. England was owned by Normandy the same way that Hong-Kong was once owned by Britain in the 19th century (and weren't the same countries), it was just a feodal possession of the land.

Germany and Italy were part of the same empires for much longer time than Normandy and England did.
Would you say that Italy is the closest country to Germany. This is the same thing for France vs Britain.

You have a hard time to understand that:
1. Normandy at the time of William and the Conquerors was not France.
2. In medival times empires were land possesions, the concepts of "countries" or "nations" did not existed at that time. Basically the owning class did not had any relations with the cultures of the people who lived in the lands they ruled. This is only from the 18th to 19th centuries that the "nations" and "countries" began to emerge.

France and Britain are as different or as similar as are Italy and Germany, not less, not more. I don't understand why so many British or British descent people on this forum want to think that Britian would be a sort of variation of the french culture... I never had seen such attitude among Germans versus their southern neighbours in Italy... Germans are not jalous of the Italians it seems, unlike other peoples.
Germans and Italians look nothing alike. Northern,atlantic/western french and Brits are pretty close people in every regards but language.
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