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Old 11-19-2013, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Utica, NY
1,912 posts, read 2,539,348 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulldetonyna View Post
English is a pidgin, neither Germanic or Latin. English is not West Germanic, c'mon..The structure? What structure? English is a pidgin with no structure, no grammar, no nothing...that's why English became so important. English is like Linux.
Even Norman had strong elements of Norse in its vocabulary. English is still a Germanic language at core level.

Last edited by Rozenn; 11-19-2013 at 05:17 PM.. Reason: Unnecessary

 
Old 11-19-2013, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Outer Space
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulldetonyna View Post
Because the lack of continuity....Middle English, as I believe it was called, disappeared entirely BECAUSE the society that created such a language DISAPPEARED. The ensuing pidgin had no Germanic declinations, no verbs, no rules of pronunciation, no nothing, it was just a patois.
You keep making that claim, so better cough up some hard evidence for it. I'm guessing you don't because there isn't any.
 
Old 11-19-2013, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Stockholm
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But what do you say about languages like modern German, modern Dutch and modern Swedish? Are they not Germanic languages? Cause they are nothing like Old German, Old Dutch or Old Norse either.
 
Old 11-19-2013, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Stockholm
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Here is Old East Norse, the ancestor of Swedish:

Quote:
Aft Wǣmō/Wāmō stąnda rūnaʀ āʀ. n Warinn fāi, faiʀ, aft figjąn sūnu. Sagum mōgminni/ungmnni at, hwrjaʀ walraufaʀ wāʀin twāʀ āʀ, swā twalf sinnum wāʀin numnaʀ at walraufu, bāaʀ sąmąn ą̄ ȳmissum mąnnum. at sagum ąnnart, hwaʀ fur nīu aldum ą̄n uri/yri fjaru mer Hrigutum, auk dō mer hann umb sakaʀ. Rē jorikʀ hinn urmōi, stilliʀ flutna, strąndu Hrimaraʀ. Sitiʀ nū garwʀ ą̄ guta sīnum, skjaldi umb fatlaʀ, skati Mǣringa. at sagum twalfta, hwar hstʀ sē Gunnaʀ etu wēttwąngi ą̄, kunungaʀ twiʀ tigiʀ swā ą̄ liggja. at sagum rēttaunda, hwariʀ twiʀ tigiʀ kunungaʀ sātin at Sjolundi fjagura wintur at fjagurum nafnum, burniʀ fjagurum br̄rum. Walkaʀ fimm, Rāulfs syniʀ, Hriulfaʀ fimm, Rugulfs syniʀ, Hāislaʀ fimm, Hārus syniʀ, Gunnmundaʀ/Kynmundaʀ fimm, Bjarnaʀ syniʀ. Nū 'k m[inni] m[er] allu [sa]gi. inhwaʀʀ ... [swā] ... ftiʀ frā. Sagum mōgminni/ungmnni at, hwaʀ Inguldinga wāʀi guldinn at kwą̄naʀ hūsli. Sagum mōgminni/ungmnni, hwim sē burinn niʀ dr̨ngi. Wilinn es at. Knūą/knyią knātti jatun. Wilinn es at ... Sagum mōgminni/ungmnni: ōrr. Sibbi wīawri ōl nīr̄ʀ.
I can assure you that no speakers of modern Swedish can understand what it says there, infact not any clue at all. Does that mean that my language also is a pidgin language and not Germanic?
 
Old 11-19-2013, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Outer Space
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulldetonyna View Post
The study, published in 1973, offered this breakdown of sources: Latin, 28.34 percent; French, 28.3 percent; Old and Middle English, Old Norse, and Dutch, 25 percent; Greek 5.32 percent; no etymology given, 4.03 percent; derived from proper names, 3.28 percent; all other languages, less than 1 percent.


So 60 percent of English is Latin, French and Greek...only 25 percent Middle English and the rest from other languages.

The definition of a pidgin, a contact language, a mixed patois spoken by people that have other mother tongue....In its origins, neither the Normans or the "Saxon" rabble had this patois as Mother Tongue... It was just a Contact Language.
I think you are missing that the change from Old to Middle English did not happen overnight and the wheels were already being set in motion before the Norman conquest.

A chart has been put together to show the similarities and differences between Middle English and a creole language. Middle English as some similarities, but definitely not an overwhelming number of them. Another factor against the idea of Middle English as a creole is that there is no evidence of a complete break in continuity between Old and Middle English.
 
Old 11-19-2013, 04:44 PM
 
25,059 posts, read 23,113,472 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnusPetersson View Post
Here is Old East Norse, the ancestor of Swedish:



I can assure you that no speakers of modern Swedish can understand what it says there, infact not any clue at all. Does that mean that my language also is a pidgin language and not Germanic?
I don't know any of the North Germanic languages, but what you quoted seems like it's much more similar to Icelandic than modern Swedish, which looks more German than that
 
Old 11-19-2013, 07:11 PM
 
Location: Outer Space
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Modern Icelandic has changed little from Old Norse, so that observation makes sense.
 
Old 11-19-2013, 07:31 PM
 
Location: Stockholm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
I don't know any of the North Germanic languages, but what you quoted seems like it's much more similar to Icelandic than modern Swedish, which looks more German than that
Icelandic and Faroese is the only Germanic languages that are close to their old form. There is no other modern North Germanic or West Germanic language that is like that.

Icelandic and Faroese are therefore the most proper Germanic languages spoken today.

The modern versions of English, Dutch, German, Frisian, Swedish, Danish and Norwegian are nothing like their old versions, but they are STILL Germanic languages, even though all of them had lots of Latin/Romance influences.

Here is a wikipedia article written in modern Swedish, does this really look like German to you?
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sverige

Does this sounds like German?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmufTk1AlqA

And do you have any idea of what people who can't speak English thinks it sounds like? I can't remember when I was that little, but many says it sounds like Dutch. I don't think many would say it sounds like some Latin language...


What American English sounds like to non-English speakers - YouTube

I am still quite annoyed when people use German as a base for what is Germanic, a language does to have to be like or sound like German in order to be a Germanic language, the word Germanic has NOTHING to do with German (which has a different name in most other languages), it is just one of them.

Last edited by Helsingborgaren; 11-19-2013 at 07:56 PM..
 
Old 11-20-2013, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Outer Space
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Well, I don't think the poster meant that Swedish looks more like German, therefore more Germanic. He/she was just making an observation that Old Norse looks more like Modern Icelandic than either look like Modern Swedish. Based on that alone, Swedish looked more like German than like Old Norse or Icelandic. I don't think that was way far off the mark if you aren't too generally familiar with most the Germanic languages.
 
Old 11-20-2013, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Paris
8,126 posts, read 6,648,287 times
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The last page has been off topic. The conversation would fit that thread better:
Germanic language mutual intelligibility

Maybe time to close the thread.
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