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Old 10-08-2012, 11:09 AM
 
2,924 posts, read 2,354,309 times
Reputation: 618

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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
So my opinion is just "my Russian opinion," but your opinion represents the "world's opinion" - I see how it goes)))
When we discuss how Russia is perceived in the world then of course your opinion will be biased as most nations see them better than they really are. My opinion as an outsider is much objective.
Also, if this forum was frequented by a lot of Europeans you would hear more about the behavior of Russian tourists in Europe, like the one just posted from Germany.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
I don't think it's about "communist regime" only - don't forget that historically the majority of Russians lived in wretched poverty - and that goes already for BEFORE the revolution. ( I saw poor Americans as well - don't get me started there))))
It depends, because some Bolsheviks originally were from the well-educated class and manners were still very much appreciated through Stalin's times. With Khruchev coming to power - yes, things drastically changed and not for the best in this department.
Culture, manners as they were known in Europe and to educated class in Russia were by the Bolsheviks perceived as bourgeois and eradicated. Bolsheviks terribly hurt Russian culture in all aspects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Melanie is correct.
These "New Russians" pigster style with tonnes of money are American gift to Europe))))
( And wait, that's only the beginning - this American shtick of the nineties is a gift that keeps on giving, and there is more to come when it's coming to "nice surprises" from Russia on international scene...)
There was no American shtick, don't blame America for 70 years of Communism and then for putting a product of that regime, an ex-KGB colonel and his friends to run a free, democratic country. That's your Russian thing. As absurd as always.

Last edited by rebel12; 10-08-2012 at 11:26 AM..

 
Old 10-08-2012, 11:18 AM
 
14,998 posts, read 13,576,941 times
Reputation: 6898
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
When we discuss how Russia is perceived in the world then of course your opinion will be biased as most nations see them better than they really are. My opinion as an outsider is much objective.
Oh sure, sure, you are an "outsider" and poor me, who lived 20+ something years in the US is not qualified to compare))))

Quote:
Also, if this forum was frequented by a lot of Europeans you would hear more about the behavior of Russian tourists in Europe, like the one just posted from Germany.
And? Those are "New Russians" with tonnes of ill-gotten money, so what else do you expect?
Do you think normal people from there can afford traveling to Europe and throw money in European boutiques?

Quote:
Culture, manners as they are known in Europe and to educated class in Russia were by the Bolsheviks perceived as bourgeois customs and eradicated. Bolsheviks terrible hurt Russian culture in all aspects.
Bolsheviks didn't hurt Russia as badly as you are trying to imagine; what came after, the uncontrollable power of money was much, much worse. But as I've said - wait and see, there is more to come.


Quote:
There was no American shtick, don't blame America for putting the ex-KGB colonel to run a free, democratic country.
Yeah, right... - "free and democratic" - those were the key words used in the 90ies, while the plundering galore was going on..

Just remember one thing Rebel - you shake hands with the devil, you invite devil in your own house.
These New Russians already feel quite comfortable at European five stars resorts - don't they?

Last edited by erasure; 10-08-2012 at 11:59 AM..
 
Old 10-08-2012, 12:06 PM
 
Location: North West Northern Ireland.
20,695 posts, read 19,463,462 times
Reputation: 3107
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
Are you suprised? When in Europe we don't see Russian bus drivers or teachers on pitiful salaries, we see Russian mafia having fun, this is how we make our opinions.
And there are those like you who spill mindless propaganda anywhere they can.

I have Russian friends in New York and Florida, some of them just came two-three years ago, I heard many stories about life in Russia. That is not a pretty picture.
No because when in Europe we see no Russians...
 
Old 10-08-2012, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Coldwind Farm
649 posts, read 646,898 times
Reputation: 553
Ooh yea, it's so nice read these posts, sometimes which looks like the paranoia. "The people in Russia have no culture at all", it's good for you. Because after I've read such posts, I think that it would be better for Russia to have more close ties with China than with Europe and with you Rebel. Our economic and political situations is the internal Russian interests, i hate today's russian govt, but only the russian citizens must decide their problems, also as in Russia nobody interesting your personal opinion, you're hate Russia and you see it even when you sleep. My uncle live in US almost 15 years and he says that never heard bad words about Russians and Russia. So for me it's better be in Asia than with such people as Rebel in Europe.

Last edited by bartonfly; 10-08-2012 at 01:02 PM..
 
Old 10-08-2012, 02:00 PM
 
2,924 posts, read 2,354,309 times
Reputation: 618
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Oh sure, sure, you are an "outsider" and poor me, who lived 20+ something years in the US is not qualified to compare))))
You'll always be biased. We are never objective about our families and homelands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
And? Those are "New Russians" with tonnes of ill-gotten money, so what else do you expect?
Do you think normal people from there can afford traveling to Europe and throw money in European boutiques?
Yet these are still Russians representing Russia abroad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Bolsheviks didn't hurt Russia as badly as you are trying to imagine; what came after, the uncontrollable power of money was much, much worse. But as I've said - wait and see, there is more to come.
Bolsheviks hurt Russia terribly. Wanting to eradicate the old borgois culture they eradicated Russian culture, diminishing it to a role of propaganda. Socrealism replaced all other trends in arts and Russian writers had to become tubas of the new system or face extinction.
Not many decided to write the truth about the regime and all paid dearly.
Bolshevik Russia did not tolerate any dissent. You know that very well, Erasure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Yeah, right... - "free and democratic" - those were the key words used in the 90ies, while the plundering galore was going on..
Yet it was not the American capitalist that plundered Russia, if that in fact happened, but it was rather the old Soviet ruling class which exchanged political rule for economic rule. Russian industry was not taken over by American or Japanese but by the Russians themselves, not surprisingly the Russians that were part of the priviledge political class, like ex-KGB colonel Putin and his friends. Don't fool yourself, Putin is as Russian as you can be. He exemplifies Russian mentality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Just remember one thing Rebel - you shake hands with the devil, you invite devil in your own house. These New Russians already feel quite comfortable at European five stars resorts - don't they?
Yes. Russia shook hands with the devile when it killed Tsar's family and invited the Red Plague to rule the country for 70 years. The rest is just an end result of that fact.
 
Old 10-08-2012, 02:18 PM
 
2,032 posts, read 2,409,871 times
Reputation: 1499
Quote:
Originally Posted by bartonfly View Post
Ooh yea, it's so nice read these posts, sometimes which looks like the paranoia. "The people in Russia have no culture at all", it's good for you. Because after I've read such posts, I think that it would be better for Russia to have more close ties with China than with Europe and with you Rebel. Our economic and political situations is the internal Russian interests, i hate today's russian govt, but only the russian citizens must decide their problems, also as in Russia nobody interesting your personal opinion, you're hate Russia and you see it even when you sleep. My uncle live in US almost 15 years and he says that never heard bad words about Russians and Russia. So for me it's better be in Asia than with such people as Rebel in Europe.
bartonfly,

Don't be too quick to judge all Europeans based on what rebel12 writes. This poster is obviously biased when it comes to anything Russia/Russian. There are many Europeans who have been to Russia and have great things to say about the country and the culture.
 
Old 10-08-2012, 02:23 PM
 
2,032 posts, read 2,409,871 times
Reputation: 1499
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
So do Russians have to pass the test on manners then, while applying for visas to Europe?

I have couple of things to add;

1. People who post from Kamchatka\Russian Far East don't make up stuff about ownership of foreign cars - Vladivostok and all are full of foreign cars, because they are close to Japan and they receive a lot ( A LOT) of foreign cars, both new and used. Used in particular - for long time car sales were the hub of their business ( because from there those cars were resold to the rest of the country.) Few years ago there were huge mass protests in Russian Far East, when Putin decided o hike the taxes on used foreign cars, because it was affecting local economy great deal.
So yes, they have tonnes of cars there comparably to the rest of the country, with exception to Moscow and St. Petersburg.
That's number one, and number two -
Russians often don't have manners, it's true, but they definitely have rich ( and old) culture, where Americans do have manners for the most part, but they don't have much of a culture.
Indeed, there are many Japanese cars in the RFE.
As for how people manage to afford them, I'm unsure. As erasure wrote, there is a very large shadow economy, so that is part of the answer. Another part of the answer, I think, is that many in that region would prefer to have an expensive Land Cruiser than invest their money in their flats. I knew dozens of people with expensive Japanese cars who lived in efficiency "gastinkas", so with no kitchens.

erasure, every country has culture. The idea that Russia somehow has a rich culture and the US doesn't is ridiculous, but I suspect you knew that.
 
Old 10-08-2012, 02:57 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
78,204 posts, read 70,164,017 times
Reputation: 76047
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
Good, Ivan. Learn English and come back. Better yet. Don't come back.

PS. So how much FSB pays you for these posts? $1 $2?
You're going after the wrong guy. Russiaonline was your guy, but you missed him. I don't know if he's still around.
 
Old 10-08-2012, 03:00 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
78,204 posts, read 70,164,017 times
Reputation: 76047
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel12 View Post
This maybe true for some but generaly with an average salary of $600 most people can't afford any of these things. Yes, local Russian products like furs or caviar are definetely cheaper but Sony or Panasonic is not selling its products in Russia below cost and electronics and plasma TV cost as much as they cost in the US making these productcs well beyond reach anybody with a $600 salary.

You simply mistake what some can afford for general affordability of products. $600 monthly salary does not buy much in fooreign products even if you can afford to spend your entire salary on them.
Missing the point again. Russia was making its own flat-screen TV's long before they were in North America. I don't know about Europe.
 
Old 10-08-2012, 03:08 PM
 
2,032 posts, read 2,409,871 times
Reputation: 1499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Missing the point again. Russia was making its own flat-screen TV's long before they were in North America. I don't know about Europe.
That's interesting, because the first flat screens I saw in Russia were Samsung. This was about 2006ish.
Which Russian company was making flat screens prior to 2006?

(I wanted to add that my buddy in Minneapolis had a Panasonic flatscreen in about 1999. That was the first one I ever saw.)
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