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Polish-Americans are usually Catholic, and seemed to emigrate into cities - Detroit, Chicago, etc.
German-Americans were usually Protestant/Lutheran or who knows what...and seemed to go throughout the Midwest, predominately to be farmers. Some in the cities too, but more well-known for places like Cincinnati, Milwaukee, etc. I never think Germans and Chicago or Detroit, for example.
In short, I'm having a hard time thinking of the similarities between Polish-Americans and German-Americans.
The city of Milwaukee was predominantly Polish and German for many decades.
I don't know if this is relevant, but I recall the great Italian geneticist Cavalli-Sforza saying his genetic analyses could not draw any divisions in central Europe. In other words, the Celts, Scandinavians (and N. Germans) seemed to separated, but he areas of NE France, most of Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, etc. were a similar mix of peoples. Not to say there were not subgroups, but that they were sufficiently mixed that they were all pretty much the same at a population level, due to thousands of years of moving around and intermarrying,etc.
So, it would mean the Poles and Germans are not as different as their nationalist thinking implies. But then again, it does not take long to separate people by language, culture, religion,etc., so that they may act very differently.
As an aside, I find it funny that in the USA a lot of the European ethnic groups that moved to cities with ethnic enclaves (Poles, Irish, Italians, Jews, etc.) seem to be very vocal in their pride about their ethnic heritage. The Germans, who moved to the remote farmlands, keep a lower profile. Whereas in Europe, Germans seem to rule the roost, and have consistently acted with much more nationalistic pride (infamously so) than many other groups. It is an interesting contrast. In the defense of our immigrants, I would say that Germans are great Americans for the most part. Hardworking, intelligent, law-abiding, innovative builders of institutions, supporters of education and social justice, and just show good sense overall. Yet, again, they don't typically toot their horn, at all.
So, it would mean the Poles and Germans are not as different as their nationalist thinking implies. But then again, it does not take long to separate people by language, culture, religion,etc., so that they may act very differently.
I cant speak for Poland proper, but what used to be East Germany was up into the Middle Ages Slavic.
The German kings (later Holy Roman Emporers) started to conquer this area, and had established various marches (ie Brandenburg, Meissen, etc) to conquer (& chirstianize..tho that was just a side issue) these pagan Slavic tribes.
This conequest wasn't exactley genocide, since the area was sparsley populated, so it was a mix of settlement of wilderness by Germans (and Dutch)and the "Germanization' of the indiginous inhabitants...which also included the incorporation of the Slavic rulers as vassals if they converted to Christianity and swore allegiance to the German king. This was the case witlh what is now Mecklenburg, where the ruling house wasn't German but of germanized Slav ancestry.
So a substantial portion of the population of modern East Germany...the states of Brandenburg, Mecklenburg, Saxony/Anhalt, Vorpommern (Hither Pomerania), and even parts of Thuringia, and perhaps parts of Lower Saxony along the Elbe,
are actually of distant Slavic ancestry.
One can also find evidence of this in placenames, where a town that ends in "itz" or "au" or "ow" (as in Pankow or Kustritz), would have originally been a Slavic settlement.
The only place where this assimilation wasn't complete was in Lusatia, where the Slavs there kept their old language and customs (google "Lusatian Sorbs").
So perhaps this process was continuing in the area east of the Oder-Niesse line as the Germans moved east (the story of how Prussia became German is a bit different, as it was the outcome of a sort of crusade).
But one does wonder about the history of Silesia, as that was a area of German settlement well to the east of the Oder/Neisse line.
This is going back a bit, but the medieval and early modern Kingdom of Poland had a large and significant German population, concentrated in the cities, where they dominated the guilds and commercial life. As late as the 16th century, the main language heard in cities like Krakow and Poznan was German. This was due to a colonization policy followed by the Polish kings after the country had been devastated by the Mongols and needed to be rebuilt. This German population largely assimilated after a few generations, but left its traces in various ways (like the large number of German words, often quite modified, in Polish: e.g. burmistrz "mayor," from Buergermeister).
Fascinating, I was wondering about this. I think some of these cities (Gdansk/Dazig for sure, but perhaps others) belonged to the Hanse, too?
One can also find evidence of this in placenames, where a town that ends in "itz" or "au" or "ow" (as in Pankow or Kustritz), would have originally been a Slavic settlement.
Yes, also some major cities, like Leipzig (from lipiec "lime tree") and Berlin (I forget its exact meaning).
And yes, Danzig was a Hanseatic city, and I think some other Polish cities as well.
The Germans, who moved to the remote farmlands, keep a lower profile. Whereas in Europe, Germans seem to rule the roost, and have consistently acted with much more nationalistic pride (infamously so) than many other groups. It is an interesting contrast. In the defense of our immigrants, I would say that Germans are great Americans for the most part. Hardworking, intelligent, law-abiding, innovative builders of institutions, supporters of education and social justice, and just show good sense overall. Yet, again, they don't typically toot their horn, at all.
Outside of big cities, in many rural regions with large German populations kept up speaking German till the early 20th century. Even schools taught in German.
Outside of big cities, in many rural regions with large German populations kept up speaking German till the early 20th century. Even schools taught in German.
Yes, I think there was even some debate about making German the national tongue. After the 20th Century, I think most Americans are glad that never took root. What I have always wondered (as an American with a good bit of German ancestry) is how much of the nastiness of the Germans in the 1900-1940s was a result of very specific thinking at a specific time and place, or something baked into the German culture. As I've said, in America, Germans are salt of the earth people for the most part. The Scots-Irish of the South are the ones who want to dominate the country with their values, acting like militant blowhards much of the time. A good number of yahoos in southern states have even signed "secession" pledges after Obama's reelection. You would think you'd see more of that from the German immigrants, but you don't.
I think if you look at some of the faces of some former East Germans, or maybe just say the Saxons, it wouldn't be a stretch to say they have some Slavic/Polish blood. What really constitutes a Slav anyway, guess I'll have to look it up. Scandinavia had an influence on Russia and those areas like Poland and Estonia, very different from the Slavs as in Serbia, for example.
What I have always wondered (as an American with a good bit of German ancestry) is how much of the nastiness of the Germans in the 1900-1940s was a result of very specific thinking at a specific time and place, or something baked into the German culture. As I've said, in America, Germans are salt of the earth people for the most part. The Scots-Irish of the South are the ones who want to dominate the country with their values, acting like militant blowhards much of the time. A good number of yahoos in southern states have even signed "secession" pledges after Obama's reelection. You would think you'd see more of that from the German immigrants, but you don't.
Well just to add to the generalizations, many Germans came to this country has highly-skilled laborors, and didn't seem to enter the political machine like the Irish and Italians did. I'm sure you can blame the legacy of slavery on the way some in the conservative South act than tie it to their ethnicity.
I think if you look at some of the faces of some former East Germans, or maybe just say the Saxons, it wouldn't be a stretch to say they have some Slavic/Polish blood. What really constitutes a Slav anyway, guess I'll have to look it up. Scandinavia had an influence on Russia and those areas like Poland and Estonia, very different from the Slavs as in Serbia, for example.
Scandinavia's got nearly no influence on Russia or Poland...
Also, Finland and Estonia are Nordic but NOTactually Scandanavian - Scandanavia is a geologic and historic term that refers to a geographic feature and even though Denmark is not on that, it's considered it because of proximity and the history of conquering land on it.
Culturally, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland and Estonia are tied together culturally because of 800+ years minimum of history.
Russia has had a slight influence given to it via its region sharing borders with Finland (which would be nice if it was its own country because it would be just another country with a decent life quality.)
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