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Old 10-17-2012, 09:41 AM
 
Location: SWE
887 posts, read 1,371,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
I wouldn't even link PISA to the education system. Otherwise, Moscow, that scored like Finland, must have a very different system than other regions, that scored much lower - which is not true.

Plus the test is totally flawed - it doesn't make sense that Moscow, with hordes of immigrants, often poorly educated and with a bad command of Russian, is on top.

Moscow scores significantly below the urban average on the national test! Now that makes sense.
No matter how flawed the tests at the end of primary education are, i feel they do what they are intended for. A student who has committed to their education to the best his/her abilities, and scores high, will in all likelyhood perform well on any post-primary and/or post-secondary education they wish to pursue, while students who have poor results on paper, despite performing to the best of their abilities, likely not so much. Whether or not academic excellence at all levels translates to excellent performance in the job market is a whole different question.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:11 AM
 
1,730 posts, read 1,695,324 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic_Vega View Post
No matter how flawed the tests
It's PISA that's flawed, or more correctly - simply a joke, because of sample sizes. They may be just fine for a country like Finland, but in a country like Russia such samples are needed for each of many different parts of a country, and even districts of some cities. With an almost zero sample sizes we get what should be expected - results that are totally off.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:15 AM
 
Location: SWE
887 posts, read 1,371,415 times
Reputation: 798
Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
It's PISA that's flawed, or more correctly - simply a joke, because of sample sizes. They may be just fine for a country like Finland, but in a country like Russia such samples are needed for each of many different parts of a country, and even districts of some cities. With an almost zero sample sizes we get what should be expected - results that are totally off.
Since i'm no expert of PISA testing, what exactly do you mean by "zero sample sizes", and what is the basis that these tests would specifically place Russian schools in an unfavorable position? Please, no large pictures or lenghty videos.
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Old 10-17-2012, 10:55 AM
 
1,730 posts, read 1,695,324 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic_Vega View Post
what exactly do you mean by "zero sample sizes"
There are only a few hundred test takers per location, each of which is huge. That's not enough. Plus, imagine how you should spread them in Moscow, to cover different parts of the city - and it's needed, since Moscow is totally not homogeneous. And not only Moscow. There'll be a few dozen samples per location - which is nothing.

Quote:
and what is the basis that these tests would specifically place Russian schools in an unfavorable position?
Russian education doesn't teach to solve such problems - the way they are presented in the test. There is no way to estimate this disadvantage (if it exists), unless the test is administered universally, not just to 5000 people.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:11 AM
 
Location: SWE
887 posts, read 1,371,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
There are only a few hundred test takers per location, each of which is huge. That's not enough. Plus, imagine how you should spread them in Moscow, to cover different parts of the city - and it's needed, since Moscow is totally not homogeneous. And not only Moscow. There'll be a few dozen samples per location - which is nothing.
This would indeed be a major game changer, if indeed the % of test takers would vary significantly between countries, or of the take was very small. If you have evidence of such, you should post it here as that would only further prove my crazy suspicion that PISA tests might be geared to make certain education systems appear superior to certain others, in the process possibly causing the results of the russian education system to be "collateral damage".

Of course if one assumes a large immigrant population was to significantly skew the results of those tests, then countries with small and better educated immigrant populations would be at an advantage. But i don't see what is the point, the immigrants are part of the society nonetheless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
Russian education doesn't teach to solve such problems - the way they are presented in the test. There is no way to estimate this disadvantage (if it exists), unless the test is administered universally, not just to 5000 people.
I'm sure there are many russians who are not taught to solve alot of problems, but if the test standards and percent of takers are the same for every country, it is a fair test.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:53 AM
 
1,730 posts, read 1,695,324 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic_Vega View Post
If you have evidence of such
Programme for International Student Assessment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
470,000 15-year-old students representing 65 nations and territories participated in PISA 2009. An additional 50,000 students representing 9 nations were tested in 2010.
That's 7000 per country on average.

http://www.centeroko.ru/pisa09/pisa09_pub.htm

In Russia - 5633 pupils from 210 schools (out of 53,000) from 45 regions (out of 83).

Quote:
Of course if one assumes a large immigrant population was to significantly skew the results of those tests, then countries with small and better educated immigrant populations would be at an advantage.
Russian results will still be skewed, because it has many non-Russian republics, which natives are not that good in Russian. The distribution of national test in Russian language results:

[Excel file]
http://www.ege.edu.ru/common/upload/...ul2012_rus.xls

Quote:
I'm sure there are many russians who are not taught to solve alot of problems, but if the test standards and percent of takers are the same for every country, it is a fair test.
Not fair, if in some countries only kids are taught to solve such problems. Test taking skills matter significantly, especially in complex tests. But they only matter for taking such tests.

Almost all 15 year olds in Russia have probably never seen even simple tests like SAT before. And PISA is much more complex.
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:08 PM
 
Location: the dairyland
1,187 posts, read 1,915,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Your part of Europe since you are participating in this thread.
(Did you expect me to comprise the whole list of European countries in the OP?
Sorry, didn't have time for that)))
Well, it seems like many people assume that Europe is a uniform block of countries where everything is the same everywhere. Which it is not. Just wanted to point that out.
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:28 PM
 
Location: SWE
887 posts, read 1,371,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
Russian results will still be skewed, because it has many non-Russian republics, which natives are not that good in Russian. The distribution of national test in Russian language results:
This, in addition to the large groups of uneducated immigrants in Moscow and other large cities are probably groups that the russian education system should give better attention. Not only that, but making the country more welcoming for educated and skilled immigrants.

New brain drain: labor crisis looms in Russia — RT
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:09 PM
 
2,032 posts, read 2,401,741 times
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I'm actually surprised the US did as well as it did on the PISA considering the number of immigrants (legal and illegal) coming to the country.
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Old 10-17-2012, 04:38 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
77,749 posts, read 69,627,168 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffpv View Post
I'm actually surprised the US did as well as it did on the PISA considering the number of immigrants (legal and illegal) coming to the country.
Not to mention the home-grown underclass.
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