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Old 11-11-2012, 09:58 PM
 
1,730 posts, read 1,713,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic_Vega View Post
People who receive free housing are obviously at a very significant financial advantage compared to those who'd have to wait for their turn, all at while paying market prices for middle class housing out of their pockets, as some of your links to realtors indicate.
It's not that simple. Generally, free housing is provided to low income people - measured not only by income, but also by property, including relatives (I've got zero income, and can easily gift my property to relatives - but my queue won't come "until communism" ).

While above average earners are very unlikely to get it, except for military officers. People with good incomes don't have any trouble buying it.

Quote:
So how is it determined who is in line first to receive such a benefit from the government, and who has to spend decades waiting for theirs?
Living condition (by law the minimum acceptable living space is 13m2 per person. Less = get a bigger flat. The less the space, the faster it moves), family size, children.

Before them is a "queueless" queue: orphans, people whos houses were destroyed by natural disasters or are in unacceptable condition, single mothers, families with twins born (3-4 = you can run to the administration for your keys ), and some others.

Public workers (such as teachers) are at a huge advantage.

Quote:
How is it determined who has the priority for the obviously more valuable housing stock?
Destiny.

There are also different subsidies, such as 35-40% (up to 50% somewhere) of the purchase price is covered by muni - but only for young families (one person <35 - in some regions threashold is different).

In reality it's not that nice - for example in Vladivostok this percent magically turns into 0,5-1,5mln only, depending on the number of children - because the city takes the average cost for the whole province, which is twice less than Vladivostok's average.
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Old 11-11-2012, 10:48 PM
 
1,730 posts, read 1,713,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
It's so obvious that those houses aren't middle class houses. Anyone can see that.
Construction cost is 15-30k per m2. Land from 1mln. Utilities from 0,3mln.

Calculate yourself, what you can built, if you've got an average flat that sells for 5mln. And if you've got something worth 10mlns...

Quote:
I still don't know how we're defining "middle class".
American middle class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Above average and below the rich.

Quote:
All I know is that in the US, academicians are middle class. In Russia, many can't hope to own a flat or a house.
Comparing professions between countries is pretty useless. A small illustration from Vladivostok's DVFU:

150 » "" - :

150,000r/month + housing + 2mln research grant. That's absolutely not a typical pay, but that's what they are willing to pay very good professors. Which raises a question about the competence or hardworking of ordinary ones.

DVFU also pays:

- 100,000r for a publication indexed by Scopus.
- 150,000r for each aspirant, who gets PhD in 4 years.
- 10-20k for a student, who wins something.
- 10-50k for a speech somewhere.
- 300k for getting a doctorate degree.
- 100-300k for a research or textbook published in English.
- Plus the usual: for exams, for masters students, for part-timers, grants...

Divide by 15 to get $.

What's the total income of Russian professors? Nobody knows.
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Old 11-11-2012, 10:52 PM
 
1,730 posts, read 1,713,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffpv View Post
Huh? You posted houses.
Jeff, what a hell are you talking about? A family sells its flat or two, and builds a house. How hard is it to comprehend this?

This is not some freaking country, where flats are usually not sold, because they are rented.

Quote:
If Vessenaya was desirable, it wouldn't be cheap, would it? You know, supply and demand?
Comparing to some other locations - it's cheap. Comparing to some others - expensive.
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Old 11-11-2012, 11:29 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
79,195 posts, read 71,328,101 times
Reputation: 77433
Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
Above average and below the rich.

What's the total income of Russian professors? Nobody knows.
"Average" means "middle". Above average and below rich is "upper middle" class.
The income of most professors isn't much, I can tell you that.
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Old 11-11-2012, 11:31 PM
 
1,730 posts, read 1,713,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
"Average" means "middle". Above average and below rich is "upper middle" class.
Sorry, but I'd rather follow some scientific definition.

Quote:
The income of most professors isn't much, I can tell you that.
From your 1990's experience?
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Old 11-12-2012, 12:03 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
79,195 posts, read 71,328,101 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
Sorry, but I'd rather follow some scientific definition.
Do you understand the meaning of the word, "average"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
From your 1990's experience?
I'm still in touch with my friends. I know how they live.
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:43 AM
 
2,032 posts, read 2,428,732 times
Reputation: 1499
Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post
Jeff, what a hell are you talking about? A family sells its flat or two, and builds a house. How hard is it to comprehend this?

This is not some freaking country, where flats are usually not sold, because they are rented.


Comparing to some other locations - it's cheap. Comparing to some others - expensive.
You know very well what I'm "talking about". You posted that those were middle class houses. It's just a few posts ago: Look. I'm not saying it's impossible for middle class people to buy such places, but they are atypical. Again, anyone can see for themselves how much houses really cost: Недвижимость - Дома и коттеджи продажа I do not see one decent house there that sells for under 10m rubles ($330K USD) that is in a convenient location. Assuming a 'middle class' family makes 80K (less than $3K USD/month), that would be a pretty heft buy, wouldn't it? By the way, it's intellectually dishonest to insert un-provable assumptions into your statements like "well, if they already own one or two flats and sell them..": A) Not everyone in that class owns a flat (in fact, most Russians I know who make between 30-50K don't own flats); and B) If they do own a flat, it's almost invariably due to their family getting one for free. This is hardly a positive indicator of their wealth, but more a circumstance of luck.

Like nearly every other example you give in these threads: The results are not typical. You can find a few professors who make decent money, sure (by the way, you forgot to add bribes into your equation). You can find a nice children's hospital. You can find some privately funded school in the middle of nowhere. Finding is a great skill. However, you post them as if they are typical, but anyone who has spent any significant time in Russia has seen they are not. Will they become typical? I hope so. It's not the reality yet, though. I'm sure someone posting about Estonia can find exceptions to the rule, paste random pictures of said exceptions, then carry on about how it is greater than Vladivostok. Do you see Estonians doing so? I don't.

Of course, comparing to some locations Vessenaya is cheap. That doesn't mean it's not in the middle of nowhere. I mean, why not post something from Artyem and pretend it's in the middle of Vladivostok? Why not go to Ussurisk?
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:48 AM
 
1,730 posts, read 1,713,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Do you understand the meaning of the word, "average"?
Middle class doesn't mean average people - for that the term median is used.

Quote:
I'm still in touch with my friends. I know how they live.
Then post: profession, hours worked in the past 12 months, total income for the past 12 months.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:06 AM
 
1,730 posts, read 1,713,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffpv View Post
Look. I'm not saying it's impossible for middle class people to buy such places, but they are atypical.
Yes, because most of them prefer to live in apartments that cost as much as those houses.

Quote:
I do not see one decent house there that sells for under 10m rubles ($330K USD) that is in a convenient location.
1. Your definition of a "convenient location" is irrelevant.
2. If the house is for sale for 10mln then construction cost is 5-7mln. Which is the cost of a 1-2-bedroom flat... A flat, that virtually all families over 40 (which is when Westerners buy housing) have - and almost all quite a bit earlier then that.

I had a 1-bedroom in 20. My below middle class ex in 18. That's 10 mlns in current prices.

Quote:
A) Not everyone in that class owns a flat (in fact, most Russians I know who make between 30-50K don't own flats);
And everyone I know own them. Maybe you should dig the % of rental apartments in Vladik? Oh, but it's just about that - a percent.

Quote:
B) If they do own a flat, it's almost invariably due to their family getting one for free. This is hardly a positive indicator of their wealth, but more a circumstance of luck.
This is a way of life in Russia - which is the country we are talking about.

Quote:
However, you post them as if they are typical, but anyone who has spent any significant time in Russia has seen they are not.
Why then you don't post something typical. Oh, you failed measerably already, when you asked me to post pics of that worst school, and then another worst school - which I did.

Quote:
I'm sure someone posting about Estonia can find exceptions to the rule, paste random pictures of said exceptions, then carry on about how it is greater than Vladivostok.
Average income by consumption PPP in Vladivostok is almost 10 freaking times higher than in Estonia. Enough said...

Quote:
Of course, comparing to some locations Vessenaya is cheap. That doesn't mean it's not in the middle of nowhere. I mean, why not post something from Artyem and pretend it's in the middle of Vladivostok? Why not go to Ussurisk?
Have anything constructive to say?
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:12 AM
 
2,032 posts, read 2,428,732 times
Reputation: 1499
Quote:
Originally Posted by russiaonline View Post

This is a way of life in Russia - which is the country we are talking about.
That's fine, but don't use the "way of life" in Russia to compare with another country where people actually have to finance their first home. That is a massive difference, and it changes the economic realities drastically.
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