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Old 11-25-2012, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Turku, Finland
317 posts, read 328,889 times
Reputation: 288

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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Well can I then paraphrase your post by saying that the key to "Estonian success" is free money that has been sent to them by E.U.?

What a novel concept!
Such as putting money into a place that invests it in entrepreneurial growth instead of padding the mattresses of 50-something Greek retirees?

I'd endorse that use of my tax money any day, and I'm sure the Estonians appreciate the fact that most EU countries don't demand forced resettlement in return.
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Turku, Finland
317 posts, read 328,889 times
Reputation: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
Somehow I don't think that's what Judge_Smails implied.

I would interpret your previous quotes the same way he did, except I would remove the word "free". By definition, people can't "sacrifice for free money". It's not free money if people have to make sacrifices to get it.
Thanks barneyg, but aren't you the guy who very recently proclaimed "May The Soviet Union Rise Again?" If so, I don't think you read me correctly either.
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Old 11-25-2012, 10:56 AM
 
2,286 posts, read 3,915,013 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Smails View Post
Thanks barneyg, but aren't you the guy who very recently proclaimed "May The Soviet Union Rise Again?" If so, I don't think you read me correctly either.
hmmmm nope, wrong guy here for sure.
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Turku, Finland
317 posts, read 328,889 times
Reputation: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
hmmmm nope, wrong guy here for sure.
Hey Dude, sorry. It was Belmont22. My bad. Two monikers that start with B.

Public apology given and hopefully accepted.
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:11 AM
 
14,957 posts, read 13,523,476 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barneyg View Post
Somehow I don't think that's what Judge_Smails implied.
No of course not, that's why I've
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:13 AM
 
2,286 posts, read 3,915,013 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Smails View Post
Hey Dude, sorry. It was Belmont22. My bad. Two monikers that start with B.

Public apology given and hopefully accepted.
sure, don't worry, I'd much rather set the record straight on that one
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:20 AM
 
14,957 posts, read 13,523,476 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Smails View Post
Such as putting money into a place that invests it in entrepreneurial growth instead of padding the mattresses of 50-something Greek retirees?
Remove the magic word "investment" and what all the post -Soviet "restructuring" and "entrepreneurial spirit" would do? Not much.
So let's face it - the Estonian success ( if we call it success) is based on "who your neighbor is," and who is considered... well, let's employ such ominous term as "nashi"
That being said, I wondered sometimes why Latvia didn't fair as well as Estonia - too many Russians there?
Not the "preferred" language group ( i.e. not "nashi" enough for Scandinavians) - so what gives?

Quote:
I'd endorse that use of my tax money any day, and I'm sure the Estonians appreciate the fact that most EU countries don't demand forced resettlement in return.
"Forced resettlement?"
Why, do you have any particular place in mind for Estonians?
( Well Seinajoki may be - it looks pretty empty there...)
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Turku, Finland
317 posts, read 328,889 times
Reputation: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Remove the magic word "investment" and what all the post -Soviet "restructuring" and "entrepreneurial spirit" would do? Not much.
So let's face it - the Estonian success ( if we call it success) is based on "who your neighbor is," and who is considered... well, let's employ such ominous term as "nashi"
That being said, I wondered sometimes why Latvia didn't fair as well as Estonia - too many Russians there?
Not the "preferred" language group ( i.e. not "nashi" enough for Scandinavians) - so what gives?
The above narrative is rather difficult for me to disentangle, so given my missteps over the past hour please excuse my caution. Are you proposing that the Estonians are somehow suffering under the yoke of some tyrranical Finnish overlords? Or rather are you saying that Estonians are enjoying luxurious splendor at the expense of their Baltic neighbours due to some ugly Finno-Ugric racial bias? On either point I think you totally overestimate our capacity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
"Forced resettlement?"
Why, do you have any particular place in mind for Estonians?
( Well Seinajoki may be - it looks pretty empty there...)
Of all the people on the planet who haven't forcibly resettled Finnic people, it's the Finns. Which is more than I can say for one country in particular in that part of the world.

I know it's hard for some to accept, but maybe Estonian success is actually down to hard work, initiative and total separation from stifling Sovok influence. Take a look at ArcticStartup sometime and see how many Estonians are actually participating in the startup game. Any advanced country would love to have the level of entrepreneurial vigour that that country is showing right now. Others can just sit back and hate.

Last edited by Judge_Smails; 11-25-2012 at 11:47 AM..
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:10 PM
 
14,957 posts, read 13,523,476 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Smails View Post
The above narrative is rather difficult for me to disentangle, so given my missteps over the past hour please excuse my caution. Are you proposing that the Estonians are somehow suffering under the yoke of some tyrranical Finnish overlords? Or rather are you saying that Estonians are enjoying luxurious splendor at the expense of their Baltic neighbours due to some ugly Finno-Ugric racial bias? On either point I think you totally overestimate our capacity.
No, neither.
What I'm saying is that Estonia clearly benefited from the fact that it's a nation/culture that's related to Finland. ( Quite honestly never could spot a big difference between Estonians and Finns at the first place.)
( That's why I've used the word "nashi" which I assumed you were familiar with, or to put it in English language terms - "belong to the club." )



Quote:
Of all the people on the planet who haven't forcibly resettled Finnic people, it's the Finns. Which is more than I can say for one country in particular in that part of the world.
In case of the Soviet Union it was obvious why they'd want to resettle Estonians ( or anybody else for that matter,) but why would anyone else want to do it? (Of course I've being simply sarcastic.)

Quote:
I know it's hard for some to accept, but maybe Estonian success is actually down to hard work and initiative (and total separation from Russian influence)?
I see nothing wrong with "total separation from Russian influence" at this point, but I still think that "Estonian success" is a bit more than just "entrepreneurial vigor" - it's the invested money and Scandinavian presence that made the difference. ( That's why I've wondered why Latvia didn't fair equally.)

Quote:
Take a look at ArcticStartup sometime and see how many Estonians are actually participating in the startup game. Any advanced country would kill for the level of entrepreneurial vigour that that country is showing right now. Others can just sit back and hate.
I definitely don't hate - I wish Balts well, let them be happy (if they are.)
I'm just pointing at the true reasons behind that "economic success."
And the truth is - all these small Baltic nations were not "doing fine on their own" as far as I can see in in history - it's just a myth. They were always being "taken care of" by bigger interests, bigger nations - be that Germany, Russia or in this case - Scandinavian countries. As they say - "the throne is never empty."
Why is that - I don't know, because obviously there are some small countries in Western Europe where it doesn't seem to be the case.
And when I read articles like that ( plus some other stuff that I hear about Estonia) - I can only wonder whether it's a true "success" or it's just a matter of comparison with Soviet standards of life, and thus ability to "lay low" and to "accept the hardship" the way other Western Europeans wouldn't have accepted it. Not sure, really...

Estonia and Latvia: Europe's champions of austerity? | World news | guardian.co.uk

Last edited by erasure; 11-25-2012 at 12:19 PM..
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Turku, Finland
317 posts, read 328,889 times
Reputation: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
No, neither.
What I'm saying is that Estonia clearly benefited from the fact that it's a nation/culture that's related to Finland. ( Quite honestly never could spot a big difference between Estonians and Finns at the first place.)
Aside from the fact that we live in different countries, speak different languages and have different histories, sure, it's pretty hard to tell the difference between the two. Kinda like between Russians and Poles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
I see nothing wrong with "total separation from Russian influence" at this point, but I still think that "Estonian success" is a bit more than just "entrepreneurial vigor" - it's the invested money and Scandinavian presence that made the difference. ( That's why I've wondered why Latvia didn't fair equally.)
Of course entrepreneurship is nothing without investment, but it takes some demonstration of reliability to attract that investment. To refer to my earlier point, the ability to attract that investment is a resource in and of itself. And that resource was created by nobody else but the Estonians.

Yet you seem to begrudge the Estonians the fact that Scandinavians saw them fit to invest in. Maybe you feel the same about the highly qualified employee that a company chose to hire over the less qualified one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
I definitely don't hate - I wish Balts well, let them be happy (if they are.)
I'm just pointing at the true reasons behind that "economic success."
And the truth is - all these small Baltic nations were not "doing fine" on their own as far as I can see in in history - it's just a myth. They were always "taken care of" by bigger interests, bigger nations - be that Germany, Russia or in this case - Scandinavian countries. As they say - "the throne is never empty."
Maybe you feel that way, but I'd leave it to the Estonians to answer whether they like their current circumstances over what they've had before. Maybe I'm biased, but I think their Scandinavian "masters" are considerably more benevolent than the ones they've had before.
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