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Old 01-08-2013, 03:40 AM
 
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As an American minority myself, I have automatic sympathy whenever a minority anywhere else is being slagged by members of the majority. 150 years ago they were saying more or less the same things about the properly Irish Irish, both in Mother England and in the Anglo Saxon-dominated United States. Drinking, fighting, rioting, breeding, those had grains of truth to them (but aside from the breeding part who are the English to criticize?) The bit about the Irish being the albino counterparts to the "black apes" of Africa, a notion taken seriously by many of the leading minds of the day, not so much.

During that same time period they were saying similar things about my people, and they kept on saying them well into the twentieth century, long after the Irish in America had come into their own. Back during WWII a fallen soldier was refused burial at the veteran's cemetery of his Texas hometown. A fallen soldier who had been posthumously awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. Two decades later an Irish American President intervened. He ordered that the soldier be interred at Arlington. Read as much or as little as you like into that.

At the same time, I do feel there is a limited right for us to criticize the culture of others, always with reservations and qualifications. Much of the Islamic world treats their women like ***** and they have a long way to go when it comes to a lot of things, although the Arab Spring is a giant leap forward despite what right wing xenophobes in America might claim. With that said, the West has an equally sh!tty history, possibly worse in fact. Just because they're a bit behind us doesn't mean we've always been ahead, in fact they were well ahead of us back in medieval times. Always remember, when you point the finger there are three pointing back at you. That's not liberal flim flam, that's the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo View Post
Maybe so, but if a lot of them earn their livings through illegality then that makes them hypocritical.
I live in Italy, home to the Vatican. I have a very strong impression that in certain Catholic countries, particularly this one, the concept of 'hypocrisy' is a little more 'flexible' than it is in Protestant countries. I used to scratch my head when I would see movie depictions of vicious mafiosos going to confession, spending lavish amounts on baptisms and confirmations within the family, and getting all sentimental about this or that saint, but no such head-scratching goes on over here. Even among my own people (Mexican-Americans) you see that same sort of thing, i.e. hardened thugs getting these gigantic back tattoos of La Virgen, saying their rosaries, and genuflecting every time they drive by a Catholic church.

And it's not just criminals. My wife, an avowed atheist, tells me of girlfriends who would go to mass regularly (something the vast majority of young Italians don't bother to do) and who would constantly go on about how good and necessary the Church was, who would also screw twenty or thirty different guys without the slightest bit of compunction. At least the fundamentalist girls in the American Bible Belt have emotional breakdowns after they fornicate; more than one Southern man has told me that it makes for quite the lay, "all that guilt and repression, boy I'll tell you it just makes 'em go hog wild in the sack! Then come Sunday they's back in church askin' Jesus to forgive 'em...."

Maybe they're not quite as flexible about things up in Ireland or any other Catholic country that happens to be cold and foggy (Poland), but in the Catholic countries that are not forsaken by the sun, they seem to be.
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Old 01-08-2013, 03:55 AM
Status: "Brexit bound" (set 21 days ago)
 
3,688 posts, read 2,011,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mouldy Old Schmo View Post
Maybe so, but if a lot of them earn their livings through illegality then that makes them hypocritical.
I don't recall hearing how those Travellers in My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding made their livings.
By and large they thieve.
Whether it's stealing lead off a church roof, preying on the lonely and elderly, carrying out repairs to driveways that crumble within weeks ( I receive monthly visits from Travellers claiming they're working nearby on a big contract and have " some Tarmac left over " - I simply point to the CCTV cameras on my house and say " smile, you're on Candid Camera and they scarper pronto ) or stealing agricultural machinery from remote farms they engage in every illegal or illicit activity know to man.
Show any sign of weakness and these jackals will pounce.
Sorry to offend those of a liberal persuasion but they really are unrustworthy scumbags.
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Old 01-08-2013, 04:22 AM
 
567 posts, read 909,837 times
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Need I go on?
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Old 01-08-2013, 04:29 AM
Status: "Brexit bound" (set 21 days ago)
 
3,688 posts, read 2,011,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalLord View Post









Need I go on?

You really ought to because other than posting a series of ancient prints I don't see the point you are trying to make.
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Old 01-08-2013, 04:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roscoe Conkling View Post
You really ought to because other than posting a series of ancient prints I don't see the point you are trying to make.
Read the post I made before that one if you haven't already.
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Old 01-08-2013, 04:42 AM
Status: "Brexit bound" (set 21 days ago)
 
3,688 posts, read 2,011,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalLord View Post
Read the post I made before that one if you haven't already.

I did.
It didn't mention Irish Travellers once which is what this thread is about.
Come back when you have something of interest based on actual modern-day experience of Irish Travellers rather than some cut and paste history lesson.
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:01 AM
 
567 posts, read 909,837 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roscoe Conkling View Post
I did.
It didn't mention Irish Travellers once which is what this thread is about.
Come back when you have something of interest based on actual modern-day experience of Irish Travellers rather than some cut and paste history lesson.
I didn't cut or paste anything. If you don't want to connect the dots, I can't help you there.

Now, regarding today's Irish Travellers. What do you propose? Taking away their children? Outlawing their way of life and taking away what property they have? Putting them in housing projects? What exactly? Because it's one thing to just grouse about it, which is all this thread amounts to thus far. Just how far would you like to see it taken?
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:13 AM
Status: "Brexit bound" (set 21 days ago)
 
3,688 posts, read 2,011,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalLord View Post
I didn't cut or paste anything. If you don't want to connect the dots, I can't help you there.

Now, regarding today's Irish Travellers. What do you propose? Taking away their children? Outlawing their way of life and taking away what property they have? Putting them in housing projects? What exactly? Because it's one thing to just grouse about it, which is all this thread amounts to thus far. Just how far would you like to see it taken?

Well,l I posted the solution earlier but you obviously didn't read it.
So I'll repeat.
Travellers should be obliged to follow the law of the land like everyone else.
You know,simple things like pay their taxes, be accountable for their behaviour, not trespass on other people's property.
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:37 AM
 
567 posts, read 909,837 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roscoe Conkling View Post
Travellers should be obliged to follow the law of the land like everyone else.
You know,simple things like pay their taxes, be accountable for their behaviour, not trespass on other people's property.
Fair enough.

The problem is with actual enforcement. I worry that the necessary measures, if implemented in the usual hamhanded manner, would ultimately do harm, i.e., increased police repression all around, swollen prison population (I don't know how it works in Ireland, but it makes things ultimately worse in the States), and so on. It's not simply a matter of the cops going in and knocking heads like they're paid to do, though that can be bad enough by itself.

In the States, the populace in certain locales often wants to use the police as a means to crack down on a disliked group. Oftentimes the police themselves see this as counterproductive.

I suppose such concerns make me a "loony liberal" or something, but I am trying to see all sides on this. Nobody should get away with sh!tty behavior, be it a matter of 'tradition' or otherwise. But what if the solution is worse than the problem?
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Old 01-08-2013, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Paris, France
327 posts, read 861,958 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_bob View Post
they might well speak with english accents and have been born in england but all travellers in the uk are irish whether they were born there or not
Untrue.

Irish Travellers are only one section of what the PC brigade would call the "Travelling Community" and were generally referred to in the past simply is "Gypsies" in the UK.

You also have

1. Scottish Travellers
2. Indigenous English Romany Gypsies
3. More recent Romany immigrants from E.Europe
4. English "New Age" Travellers who adopted the travelling lifestyle in recent decades (a social group rather than an ethnic minority)

I understand they keep fairly seperate and hate it when we all lump them together as "Gypsies".
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