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Zwarte piet is the one who climbs down the chimney to give the toys to the kids.
That's why he's called like that, this hasn't anything to do with racism.
Try it yourself, clean out the chimney and once u are done go and take a look in the mirror.
Why bashing all this traditions? It's already a long time like this.
Since 2000 there is more and more unneeded drama, like the a cross is not done anymore
because it is too religious. Now you have this problem. Just live and let live.
Make the children happy... Let it like it used to be.
Once again,
Kids place an empty shoe next to the chimney, piet climbs down to put some toys in.
Are you gonna say this is racism? Well clean the chimney or stop drinking vinegar.
So now anything painted black is offensive? God forbid someone should play the Rolling Stone's song "I see a red door and I want to paint it black". Why aren't white people in an uproar over painted white faces on mimes. People need to quit being so darn sensitive. I am half Puerto Rican and I find it hilarious when white actors were made to look Mexican in old movies. In an age where black people (or darker than white, but not black - like the Moors) were not common in The Netherlands, they made do with what they had. It becomes tradition based on that and not a racist motivation.
As a black person from the Southern U.S. I see it differently as a black from say the Netherlands or elsewhere in the world.
As you stated ,it depends on the motivation.In the case of Zwarte Piet. I'ts rooted in tradition,culture and history.I don't see it as negative IF I were able to separate my knowledge of American historical racist depictions of a "Picaninny".
When I was a teenager a very religious white married mother who was associated with a church group I used to attend,had these all over her house as she collected them.
I was too young to understand.If my parents had ever seen them,they would have hit the ROOF!These date back to minstrel shows where black-face was worn by whites who acted stupid and ignorant as blacks were seen as clowns almost.
Location: In a Galaxy far, far away called Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afonega1
As a black person from the Southern U.S. I see it differently as a black from say the Netherlands or elsewhere in the world.
As you stated ,it depends on the motivation.In the case of Zwarte Piet. I'ts rooted in tradition,culture and history.I don't see it as negative IF I were able to separate my knowledge of American historical racist depictions of a "Picaninny".
When I was a teenager a very religious white married mother who was associated with a church group I used to attend,had these all over her house as she collected them.
I was too young to understand.If my parents had ever seen them,they would have hit the ROOF!These date back to minstrel shows where black-face was worn by whites who acted stupid and ignorant as blacks were seen as clowns almost.
its not about being sensitive. it's about the privileged refusing to acknowledge that something can be seen as offensive to others.
as far as the topic at hand, its hard to say because i'm not a black person from holland. i will say tho that has someone who went to school and studied race relations for quite some time and have seen and read much, minstrel shows get me upset second only to lynchings/executions.
Location: In a Galaxy far, far away called Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trademark0013
its not about being sensitive. it's about the privileged refusing to acknowledge that something can be seen as offensive to others.
Everything can be offensive to someone. Looking for it and reaching for it is oppressive and wrong. There is a point where you are so afraid to offend someone that you are just living scared.
Everything can be offensive to someone. Looking for it and reaching for it is oppressive and wrong. There is a point where you are so afraid to offend someone that you are just living scared.
None of us like to look bad ,but you are right.You will just be scared to encounter different types of people for fear of what you might say or do.
I currently rent one of my rooms to a white French Canadian.He is only 24.He sometimes says " boy" when addressing me and others.If this were a white person from the South I would be furious!!(Im African American).I had to explain to him why this is a no-no.Especially addressing African Americans.Of course he had no idea but once I explained it he was so upset because he meant no disrespect.I told him of course its not his fault.
when I was growing up, I thought it would be offensive; I had a lot of black friends in the Netherlands and they'd tell me it was just part of old tradition. They saw it as funny.....So I accepted it as such. Now its seen as racist...it's silly to pull out the race card everytime something comes up..They make fun of white people in some things, should we be offended too? I think not..
when I was growing up, I thought it would be offensive; I had a lot of black friends in the Netherlands and they'd tell me it was just part of old tradition. They saw it as funny.....So I accepted it as such. Now its seen as racist...it's silly to pull out the race card everytime something comes up..They make fun of white people in some things, should we be offended too? I think not..
A lot of my black friends, including myself, DO find it offensive. And because its a free country we should be aloud to speak up about it, wich we are. That doesn't mean that white dutch people should ban it from there culture, it means they should be open about it and discuss it. Learn about our perspective on it and dont take the privilege refusing to acknowledge that something can be seen as offensive to others. Thats what makes a democracy.
Just ask yourself if Mandela or Obama would visit the Netherlands during Sinterklaas, would you proudly show them a white guy with his "helpers" (a bunch of black painted clowns). Especially knowing where they come from. I wonder..
BTW Bullfighting is also an "old tradition" is Spain, does that make it morraly right?
I agree with you and I'm not saying traditions are always morally right...I'm just saying how I came to look at that particular thing through my friends' eyes. Most were from Aruba and Jamaica and that's how they felt then...maybe the generation now sees it differently..I wasn't trying to sound like you can't feel bad about something, if it bothers you, so be it; seriously.
I'm just saying that sometimes the race card is used too quick. I've lived in the southern part of the US and it seems over there some live to pull out the race card and punish white people for things they have nothing to do with. I've seen it here in Belgium too when it came to people from Zaire.
I guess seeing Obama or Mandela with zwarte piet would be kind of awkward.
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