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You REALLY don't get it do you? People are fed up more and more, because immigrants come in, take everything that we have to offer, like freedom, money, housing, but then reject things like our culture. And our governments cater to them. Again and again and again and again.
Of course, it is easy to take an academich point of view if you are in Texas and not in Europe where people actually experience on a daily basis what is happening.
Wow, I never thought someone would utter those words (underlined)! Actually, everything you said in that first paragraph mirrors what I hear about constantly in regards to Mexican immigrants. Not insisting that your situation isn't worse than ours, but not going to jump to believing it is, either.
To reiterate, my only problem was with the idea that what's in the east should stay there generally speaking. It's the ethnocentrism, you understand, that I disagree with. Not your beef with the fact that your government caters to people it shouldn't, not your problem with gay bashers, etc.
I welcome diversity that is not directly and verifiably harmful.
And no, it is not easy for a Texan to develop and maintain that point of view.
Repeat it all you like, doesn't make it some big important message. Of course the laws that govern a particular nation or continent... "go" in that nation or continent. So what? And "Muslim influence" will either be accepted or rejected by the vast majority of Europeans and the governments in place over them. Whichever happens, whatever laws are adopted are at that point "western law". You'd do well to argue in favor of traditionalism, if you're so against change in general. And again, any specific beliefs/doctrines you oppose I may agree or disagree with you on. But why do you think it's so important that what's in the east stays in the east as a general rule?[/quote]
Just ignore trolls.
I think that you don't quite grasp the situation.
You are comparing, for example, the presence of Mexicans with the presence of Muslims and Roma. Completely different scenario.
Muslims (mostly those from North Africa) rebuke western laws and think those laws are degenerate, and what's more, they can't ask for tolerance because they don't tolerate western culture. They have a clear agenda, take their societies and change infidel laws. Imans bombard them constantly.
On the other hand, Mexicans have a western culture and values, are christians and just want to make money and prosper, and they are in what was a former part of their country only 150 years ago (nothing in European terms).
So really, you are lucky.
Wow, I never thought someone would utter those words (underlined)! Actually, everything you said in that first paragraph mirrors what I hear about constantly in regards to Mexican immigrants. Not insisting that your situation isn't worse than ours, but not going to jump to believing it is, either.
To reiterate, my only problem was with the idea that what's in the east should stay there generally speaking. It's the ethnocentrism, you understand, that I disagree with. Not your beef with the fact that your government caters to people it shouldn't, not your problem with gay bashers, etc.
I welcome diversity that is not directly and verifiably harmful.
And no, it is not easy for a Texan to develop and maintain that point of view.
Yadayadayada. Come back to us when you Texas has a similar influx of muslims like Europe has, then we'll talk again.
Your second to last sentence: That is why people in Europe are uoset. They are harmful.
You are comparing, for example, the presence of Mexicans with the presence of Muslims and Roma.
Hold your accusations until you actually have a reason to throw them around. I wasn't comparing them, flat-out. I was responding to a post in which all the things the poster said about Muslims in Europe are in fact being said here about Mexicans in the U.S. (especially Texas). And yes, though the reasoning for it is quite different, Mexican immigrants rebuke American laws through their behavior quite frequently, so it's every bit as easy for a Texan to stereotype them all and suggest we don't let anymore in.
But rest assured I did not say they were the same, at all. In fact, I made it a point to clarify that in the post you quoted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyAndRugby
Yadayadayada. Come back to us when you Texas has a similar influx of muslims like Europe has, then we'll talk again.
Knowing ethnocentrism is BS (remember, that was what I took issue with?) does not require European citizenship, sorry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyAndRugby
Your second to last sentence: "I welcome diversity that is not directly and verifiably harmful."
That is why people in Europe are uoset. They are harmful.
And you have every right to be upset about many things you are attributing to Islam as a religion. No one suggested that you accept these particular behaviors/doctrines.
Yes of course but we will always be the West. Europe will never become the middle east.
Perhaps..but maybe there's still time??????????????? Now I want to just make myself clear here in that if one looks back at history, i.e. what has happened before one must realize that things have a way of working out which maybe nobody thought would happen. Get this, a little sect in the Middle East back when was small enough that the Romans tried to destroy them at every turn. We know what happened. Things kind of flipped there. The 'Empire' eventually went under and got transformed and that 'religion' flourished. Can the same set of events happen now with Islam and the Muslims?
I'd say...there's a 'probabililty'. Why? Beacsue of what we see in history. Surely what is happneiong now ion the West with reagrd to the Muslims has alot of import to the way things have been done in the West. I say this could be probably the most significant issue facing the West and its institutions in the next century. Thre must be a way to learn to how to integrate the two atypical societies. If not well.......I think Hockey&Rrugby knows the score there....
all the things the poster said about Muslims in Europe are in fact being said here about Mexicans in the U.S. (especially Texas). And yes, though the reasoning for it is quite different, Mexican immigrants rebuke American laws through their behavior quite frequently, so it's every bit as easy for a Texan to stereotype them all and suggest we don't let anymore in.
I think you don't get the point of discussion - Mexicans (any Latinos in America) are Christians and their criminal behaviour is indeed result of low level of eductaion, bad upbringing, poverty etc, it is not their INEVITABLE philosophy just because they are Latinos - in fact it is kind of what anglo-saxon american "cowboys" were in "WILD WEST" in 19 century - those disadventages are cured by education, rising living standards etc. and in second, third generations they are normal americans...In case of Islam, there is an ideological "seed" planted in people that gives growth to behavioral/ideological/religious patterns that are in sharp contradiction to ideals of western civilisation - and the more educated such muslim person is the more REFINED AND SMART HE IS IN ATTEMPTS TO SUBVERSE WESTERN CIVILISATION AND TO SUBSTITUDE IT BY HIS IDEOLOGY - and his ideology makes non-muslims as second class on state level as well as limits those rights that western civilisation consider to be essential ...
Latinos create approximatelly the same society that we have in Europe or North America - go to Argentina or Chile and you can have there the same way of life as in Europe or USA - but go to Saudi Arabia and you immidiatelly feel the difference - well, as long as you are a foreigner/tourist in Saudi Arabia and so under US/EU umbrella they(saudis) will be polite and make excuses for you(though not always - never try to test their "tolerance" if you want to safely return to Texas and see your family again) - but try to be native Christian over there in Saudi Arabia and you will start to understand that Latin America is a Paradise for you in comparison...So people who confuse Mexican immigration problems in USA with Muslim influx into European countries and think that those are the same - they don't have a clue...
Last edited by Orientalist; 08-04-2013 at 07:31 AM..
Not your beef with the fact that your government caters to people it shouldn't, not your problem with gay bashers, etc.
And that is why I said that it if easy for someone from Texas to take a academic point of view. You could have also lived in Maine, would not have mattered. I see the same problem with the "left wingers" here in Holland who live in the better areas where there are no immigrants. They have pointed out that islam is 99% or even 99,5% equal to European laws and values. The problem lies with the parts that are not equal.
And yes, the government is the problem. It is perhaps THE issue. Because they take the spineless road and don't force immigrants to acknowledge and accept that we already have a languages, a culture, laws and values, people have a problem with the growing muslim population.
It is difficult to define on paper what the difference is, what practices and such are different. But we don't live on paper, we live in the real world. Where we can actually the difference on a daily basis. And when we speak up, we have people like you telling us that we are wrong because we cannot look at the paper and tell what the differences are.
If the immigration laws were not so strict I'd invite you to come live here. But I would force you to live in an area where there are a lot of muslim immigrants. And when your six year old daughter would come home from school crying because the muslim boys in her class tell her that her mother is a ***** for not wearing some muslim garb, I cann tell you your heart breaks. But I would force you to stay in the area and endure all the crap that is going on. And when you would want to leave, I would deny it, and point to the posts you've made here.
Is that extremely brutal? Is that disgusting? YES. But it is also the reality that many people in less well areas face. Over and over again. Only to be told by our "left wingers" that there is no problem. The same "left wingers", who like you do not have to see the problem everyday, and who don't live in it.
It is difficult to define on paper what the difference is, what practices and such are different.
no, it is not difficult to define it on paper - just read my post on previous page where I have outlined main points of that - you are welcome to use my arguments in your discussions....
Count Vlad is spinning in his grave. He spent those years slaughtering the invaders (and some of his own countrymen) to keep eastern Europe safe and now they let them come in without a fight.
Last friday I was walking in a popular neighborhood and I fell among a crowd of thousands pf muslims. I know there is a mosque not far away, so it didnt surprise me at first , friday being the day of worshipping for the moslems. But such a huge crowd...then I realized it was the day of the end of the fasting month (Râmâdan). It's in such moments that one realizes one's civilization stays on the brink. And , again, nothing against them, I was walking in the middle of that crowd (mostly men, some in oriental attire) who seemed peaceful enough. But woe the man who only trust the appearances and does not try to understand what may eventually lurk behind.
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