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Old 08-31-2013, 11:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Ahh... errr.. no...Sorry - that's not really "Greek" - that's Turkish, Turkish heavy influence at least.

This is yet another culture heavily influenced by Turks; listen to their music for comparison and you'll get the drift.


Azeri Folk Song - Ay Leli - YouTube
You're right psifteteli music and dance is from Turkey and is not considered 'Authentic Greek.' But where did the Turks get it from, would be my follow up question. From the Mideast, like a lot of the rest of their culture.
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Old 09-01-2013, 02:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pardillo View Post
Sure, benevolent Socialists had to options for gypsies, either to become NKVD/KGB/Police confidents, along with Tarakamis, or they were sent packing to Siberia.
Lol no, they've had the third option - to join gypsy theater "Romen" for example.
Russians loooved gypsy song and dance))))

P.S. I still don't know what "Tarakamis" is though...
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Old 09-01-2013, 02:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CARPATHIAN View Post
In Balkans there are two categories of Roma musician artists: those who promote autentic styles, ranging from Roma traditional music to jazz and those who promote that kitschy commercial "music" with textes and themes resembling the lyrics of gangsta rap but as I said, on Oriental tunes. Usually, is not the melody itself that sells but some 'catchy' phrase.




In Romania, this 'genre' is called manele and probably is the worst of all, although it has great success (is said that most Romanians listen to this). In Bulgaria is called chalga and is a little more styllish and pop. In Greece, apparently is closer to Greek traditional music and less vulgar.
Thanks, I've listened.
That sounds totally weird to me - as in first case, in Greece, these gypsies sound very "Eastern. "
I mean in first ( Greek) videos I could recognize Turkish music right away, but in "manele" at least, Gypsies sound like something from Islamic part of Caucasus for example; "Eastern" music combined with modern tunes.
Totally strange.
Russians wouldn't put up with such "gypsy" sound - I can tell you that much))))
This is what they love (and picture) as gypsy music;


ž‡и ‡‘€н‹е - Николай Сли‡енко - 1965 - With lyrics - YouTube

Or this)))


Табо€ ƒ…оди‚ в небо (Queen of the Gypsies): Gypsies Sing and Dance - YouTube


So as you can see nothing "eastern" - I mean no Islamic tunes as in case with Greece or Eastern/Southern Europe.

Last edited by erasure; 09-01-2013 at 03:09 PM..
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Old 09-01-2013, 03:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peer79 View Post
You're right psifteteli music and dance is from Turkey and is not considered 'Authentic Greek.' But where did the Turks get it from, would be my follow up question. From the Mideast, like a lot of the rest of their culture.
Yes, probably it's a "variation" of the Middle Eastern culture after all.
I wouldn't know how *original* Turkish music would sound if Turkey wouldn't have become part of Islamic world.
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Old 09-01-2013, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Romania
1,461 posts, read 1,655,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
So as you can see nothing "eastern" - I mean no Islamic tunes as in case with Greece or Eastern/Southern Europe.
Roma in Romania (Wallachia and Moldavia, not Transylvania) and Balkans have been slaves (in Romania until 1856) and this trauma perpertrated in the collective conscience and transmitted to these days has lead to the orientation toward something un-European, the Europeans being perceived as former opressors. Something similar to the culture of Black People in America, which in much degree is a rejection of "white" (European) culture.


Also, at least in Romania, the consciousness of the connection with India (from where the Roma originated) has lead to an interest for Indian modern culture. The films with Raj Kapoor and his musical style has influenced the manele but as the midleeast ("Islamic") tunes have more commercial success than traditional Roma music or than Indian tunes (which are not very rhythmed as the Arab and Turkish music), the later dominate the manele industry.
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Old 09-01-2013, 03:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CARPATHIAN View Post
Roma in Romania (Wallachia and Moldavia, not Transylvania) and Balkans have been slaves (in Romania until 1856) and this trauma perpertrated in the collective conscience and transmitted to these days has lead to the orientation toward something un-European, the Europeans being perceived as former opressors. Something similar to the culture of Black People in America, which in much degree is a rejection of "white" (European) culture.


Also, at least in Romania, the consciousness of the connection with India (from where the Roma originated) has lead to an interest for Indian modern culture. The films with Raj Kapoor and his musical style has influenced the manele but as the midleeast ("Islamic") tunes have more commercial success than traditional Roma music or than Indian tunes (which are not very rhythmed as the Arab and Turkish music), the later dominate the manele industry.
Roma were slaves in Romania and Balkans?
That's news to me ( how and when did it happen - I mean slaves are usually imported from somewhere at the first place - no?)
And another thing - even if this justifies the usage of "Eastern tunes" somewhere in Romania/Balkans, why would they use Turkish tunes in Greece???
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Old 09-02-2013, 01:27 AM
 
Location: Romania
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Roma were slaves in Romania and Balkans?
That's news to me ( how and when did it happen - I mean slaves are usually imported from somewhere at the first place - no?)
The first record of Roma on the territory of Romania, in 14th century, already mentions them as slaves. They probably were bought or kidnapped from south of Danube (today Bulgaria) and Byzantine Empire. There are records from 15th century of voivods (rulers of Wallachia and Moldavia) buying or taking Roma captives from Bulgaria in their looting raids and bringing them in their two principalities.

It seems that while in Byzantine empire and Balkans Roma arrived by themselves (by migration), in Wallachia and Moldavia they were mostly brought as slaves. And from fugitive or freed slaves, a part emigrated in Transylvania, were they were never enslaved.

Slavery in Romania - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Quote:
And another thing - even if this justifies the usage of "Eastern tunes" somewhere in Romania/Balkans, why would they use Turkish tunes in Greece???
First, you must understand that what one calls "Turkish" (either about music, architecture etc) is mostly of Anatolian origin and before being Turkified, the population of Anatolia spoke mostly Greek. In fact, until the 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey, large areas of Turkey were inhabited majoritary by Greeks (1.5 million), like most of the coast, Cappadocia etc.




Second, Greece was for 5 centuries under Turkish rule and being neighbours, the culture was quite close and between the music of two countries there is not big difference. I would say that traditional Turkish music is Greek music with a richer range of melodic modulations and is possible that Greeks purged those too Oriental sounding elements from their music to assert their Europeanness.


And because Roma in Greece have no reason to assert their Europeanness, they make use of the more Oriental tunes without hesitation.
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Old 09-02-2013, 01:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CARPATHIAN View Post


First, you must understand that what one calls "Turkish" (either about music, architecture etc) is mostly of Anatolian origin and before being Turkified, the population of Anatolia spoke mostly Greek. In fact, until the 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey, large areas of Turkey were inhabited majoritary by Greeks (1.5 million), like most of the coast, Cappadocia etc.


Second, Greece was for 5 centuries under Turkish rule and being neighbours, the culture was quite close and between the music of two countries there is not big difference. I would say that traditional Turkish music is Greek music with a richer range of melodic modulations and is possible that Greeks purged those too Oriental sounding elements from their music to assert their Europeanness.

If what you are saying were true, I wouldn't have identified the first videos in the first post as "Turkish" music, not Greek right away.
To pass Turkish culture for European ( Greek or Byzantium in this case) saying that they were "as close anyways" is plain wrong. Turks were originally invaders from Asia, that destroyed ( or absorbed) as much of the conquered cultures as they could.
To me, ( even though if I am unfamiliar with the sound of ancient Greek music) the sound of harp which is often portrayed on Greek drawings simply can't be anything like Central Asian instruments (that's where originally Turkish tribes came from.) And if to take in consideration that when Turks conquered Byzantium and took over Constantinople ( that's present day Istanbul in Asia Minor) they were already Islamic force, which made their culture ( music including) quite distinctively reminiscent of Arabic music.

This is what Arabic Music sounds like:


old arabic songs - YouTube


Arab Takht Music - YouTube


And this is the sound of REAL Turkish music;


Traditional Turkish Music (sub) - YouTube

Sure you can see the connection between those two?
And in contrast, that's what Turks PASS for their own music, ( which it is really NOT, because it came from Europeans they've conquered.)


Hicazkar Oyunhavas

You need to only listen to "Sirtaki" (in connection with it) which everyone recognizes as "typical" Greek music to figure out that "Turkish" tune it is not.


**** the Crisis, Let's Dance! (Best Flashmob) - YouTube
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Old 09-02-2013, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Romania
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
If what you are saying were true, I wouldn't have identified the first videos in the first post as "Turkish" music, not Greek right away.
To pass Turkish culture for European ( Greek or Byzantium in this case) saying that they were "as close anyways" is plain wrong. Turks were originally invaders from Asia, that destroyed ( or absorbed) as much of the conquered cultures as they could.
You certainly don't know the history of Anatolia. Before Alexander the Great, it was a mix of peoples with various languages and cultures, including Greek colonists on shores. After was transformed in a Hellenistic state, was Hellenized, Greek language became the most used. Different from other Hellenistic states and regions that preserved their original language (Egypt, Syria, Judea etc), Anatolia fully adopted Greek language, with some exceptions, like the Armenians, the Celts (Galatians) in their first period etc. In fact, it always was a region in demographic change, many peoples migrating and settling here, or leaving, especially during the Byzantine and Turkish empires. Byzantines colonized many Slavs, Armenians and other peoples, Turks too brought many Balkan peoples, Arabs etc. And Turkification (adoption of Turkish language) was a slow process, perhaps in 15th century as much as half of population was still Christian and Greek speaking if no more, as it happened earlier in the territories conquered by Arabs (Syria, Egypt etc) which remained majoritary Christian until quite late, perhaps 12th century.

The today Turks are in small percentage descendants of Altai Turks, who were a Mongoloid looking people. Altai Mountains, the ancestral homeland of Turkic peoples, is where Mongolia, China, Kazakhstan and Russia meet and the people there is East Asian looking. And in early Turkish manuscripts, they depict themselves as Mongoloids, because the aristocracy didn't mingled with the common people some centuries.


Today Turks, as genetic studies shown, are more closely related with the Balkan populations than to the Central Asian populations:
Genetic history of the Turkish people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Culturally, the Turks have adopted the superior culture of the Byzantine (Anatolian) civilization, including the music style. If you heard Byzantine (Eastern Christian, Orthodox) liturgical music, you will observe that the Islamic music is an offspring of it and similarly, laical Turkish music was an offspring of laical Byzantine music. Byzantine music, which is a canonic set of chants that are sang or read at several services over a liturgical day, was wrriten before the Ottoman conquest, in fact some of the chants as are old as 4th (not 14th) century and most was written perhaps before the year 1000:





Quote:
To me, ( even though if I am unfamiliar with the sound of ancient Greek music) the sound of harp which is often portrayed on Greek drawings simply can't be anything like Central Asian instruments (that's where originally Turkish tribes came from.) And if to take in consideration that when Turks conquered Byzantium and took over Constantinople ( that's present day Istanbul in Asia Minor) they were already Islamic force, which made their culture ( music including) quite distinctively reminiscent of Arabic music.
Ofcourse Greek music from Antiquity differed from later periods. The advent of Christianity, which was a capital change in old world society (and lead to the transition from slavery to feudalism among others), has much had influenced the mentalities and as result the music. Byzantine society was extremely religious (even in the days before the Fall of Constantinople, they were debating religious dogma which seemed for them more important than the end of their civilisation). The religion was present in many if not most manifestations of their life and in fact, the great majority of artefacts, textes and buildings from the Byzantine period that survived to us are religious artefacts, textes and buildings. An this religiousness no doubt influenced the style not only of church music, but of laical music, the way we see a closeness between Islamic religious music and laical music of Islamic NE peoples.


Most of what you know as Arab music was created (as a style) during the Ottoman rule over the Arab world:




In fact, Arab music (what is usually know as that) is mostly Turkish music, not the other way around. The pre-Ottoman Arab music was different than the today one.




Central Asian music too, is different from Turkish music:









Quote:
You need to only listen to "Sirtaki" (in connection with it) which everyone recognizes as "typical" Greek music to figure out that "Turkish" tune it is not.
Sirtaki is not representative for Greek music, which as I said, is similar to Turkish music but with poorer modulations.
Look a dance and song of Pontian Greeks, which are Greeks from the region on southern coast of Black Sea, that now are mostly in Greece, being descendants of the Greeks relocated from Turkey in 1923:




As you can see (if you are informed about that), the sounds are similar with the music of Balkan peoples (Croatians and Romanians excluded):

Albanian Dance:

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Old 09-02-2013, 03:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CARPATHIAN View Post
You certainly don't know the history of Anatolia. Before Alexander the Great, it was a mix of peoples with various languages and cultures, including Greek colonists on shores. After was transformed in a Hellenistic state, was Hellenized, Greek language became the most used. Different from other Hellenistic states and regions that preserved their original language (Egypt, Syria, Judea etc), Anatolia fully adopted Greek language, with some exceptions, like the Armenians, the Celts (Galatians) in their first period etc. In fact, it always was a region in demographic change, many peoples migrating and settling here, or leaving, especially during the Byzantine and Turkish empires. Byzantines colonized many Slavs, Armenians and other peoples, Turks too brought many Balkan peoples, Arabs etc. And Turkification (adoption of Turkish language) was a slow process, perhaps in 15th century as much as half of population was still Christian and Greek speaking if no more, as it happened earlier in the territories conquered by Arabs (Syria, Egypt etc) which remained majoritary Christian until quite late, perhaps 12th century.
Which is a good thing, because between two of us, I am the one who can keep truck of who is who and I am the one who is able to see forest behind the trees.

Quote:
The today Turks are in small percentage descendants of Altai Turks, who were a Mongoloid looking people. Altai Mountains, the ancestral homeland of Turkic peoples, is where Mongolia, China, Kazakhstan and Russia meet and the people there is East Asian looking. And in early Turkish manuscripts, they depict themselves as Mongoloids, because the aristocracy didn't mingled with the common people some centuries.Today Turks, as genetic studies shown, are more closely related with the Balkan populations than to the Central Asian populations:
Genetic history of the Turkish people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The number of descendents of Altai Turks should be smaller, logically speaking, because they were the invaders and the conquered local population was of non - Turkish origin to begin with.


Quote:
Culturally, the Turks have adopted the superior culture of the Byzantine (Anatolian) civilization, including the music style.
You can say the same about Arabs that conquered Persian Empire - that they too, "adopted superior culture," but nations are not conquered in order to supersede their conquerors, particularly when we are talking about subjugation to Islam. So obviously Turks brought with them different rules and different culture that was imposed on local population, even if Turks have absorbed some of the local culture as well.

Quote:
If you heard Byzantine (Eastern Christian, Orthodox) liturgical music, you will observe that the Islamic music is an offspring of it
I'm sorry, but "Islamic music" should have come originally from Arabs, logically speaking, because that's where Islamic culture originated, and that happened long before the conquest of Byzantium by Turks.

Quote:
and similarly, laical Turkish music was an offspring of laical Byzantine music. Byzantine music, which is a canonic set of chants that are sang or read at several services over a liturgical day, was wrriten before the Ottoman conquest, in fact some of the chants as are old as 4th (not 14th) century and most was written perhaps before the year 1000:


Sorry, I don't hear here anything similar to Turkish ( Islamic) music.

Quote:
Most of what you know as Arab music was created (as a style) during the Ottoman rule over the Arab world:

In fact, Arab music (what is usually know as that) is mostly Turkish music, not the other way around.
The pre-Ottoman Arab music was different than the today one.
Says who?
Have a look at Wikipedia -

Al-Farabi (872-950) wrote a notable book on music titled Kitab al-Musiqi al-Kabir (The Great Book of Music). His pure Arabian tone system is still used in Arabic music.[6]


Arabic music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

AND -

"The music of Turkey includes diverse elements ranging from Central Asian folk music to influences from Arabic music, Byzantine music, Greek music, Ottoman music, Persian music, Balkan music, as well as references to more modern European and American popular music."

Music of Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So nope, doesn't look like the influence was "the other way around."


Quote:
Central Asian music too, is different from Turkish music:
Of course it sounds different, and I'm sure that originally that's what Turkish music sounded like BEFORE Turks became Islamisized.

You brought an example of Central Asian music from Kazakhstan, where the nomadic Turkish tribes were more influenced by the neighboring Mongolia, and thus they've kept more of their original, pre-Islamic tunes.
But if you go further in Central Asia, the regions that were more cultured and that were more part of Islamic civilization, you'll already hear right away those familiar Arabic overtones;


(Tajikistan Folk Music) Ubaidullo Karomatov | Dokhtar-i Gharmi - YouTube

Quote:
Sirtaki is not representative for Greek music,
Of course it is, even though it's not the "original composition" - it's based on traditional Greek Hasapiko dance.

Sirtaki - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Hasapiko - YouTube

Quote:
which as I said, is similar to Turkish music but with poorer modulations.
Don't know what "poorer modulations" are you talking about - I don't see/hear anything common with Turkish ( i.e. Islamic music) at all.
Let's train our ears a bit, shall we?

Quote:
Look a dance and song of Pontian Greeks, which are Greeks from the region on southern coast of Black Sea, that now are mostly in Greece, being descendants of the Greeks relocated from Turkey in 1923:

Ah-haaa... when I saw this, I immediately thought of Georgians - that's another nation of "unknown origin" living there. Apparently the Pontian Greeks got too close to them and borrowed their head gear and some of Georgian music.
This is Georgian "War dance" ( just an example) - you are not going to tell me that these people sound like Turks ( muslims,) although they too border Turkey and their music doesn't sound quite European????


"GEORGIAN LEGEND" - Khorumi -


Georgian Polyphonic Singing - YouTube
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