Ukraine in EU? Yes or no? (similarities, life, cost, country)

[takeo3]

Originally Posted by boxus

Why a referendum? People voted for the government, and if they do not like what the government is doing now, then vote someone else in during the next election. It is not rocket science.

However, people in and around Kiev seem to have an over representative grip on the country by way of protests, as everyone else would have to make a considerable effort to show up in Kiev to give any support/opposition.

Ukraine is clearly two different countries in one, it needs to split.

it's not because the mainly conservative south and the democratic north are divided over many issues that the us needs to split, don't you think so?

[pigeonhole]

Originally Posted by takeo3

it's not because the mainly conservative south and the democratic north are divided over many issues that the us needs to split, don't you think so?

...right now no one is envisioning a partition of Ukraine. My little finger tells me that although they are culturally russian speaking , the East Ukrainians are not keen -unlike the Abkhazians or the South Ossetians for instance- to be included back in Mother Russia. Hence the weakness of the demonstrations in favor of Yanukowitsch's government. There is an actual Ukrainian nationalism, even in the East of the ****ry. Only as I said previously it's up to the Ukrainians to put their own haouse in orders, and not wait for the others to do it for them!

[takeo3]

Originally Posted by pigeonhole

...right now no one is envisioning a partition of Ukraine. My little finger tells me that although they are culturally russian speaking , the East Ukrainians are not keen -unlike the Abkhazians or the South Ossetians for instance- to be included back in Mother Russia. Hence the weakness of the demonstrations in favor of Yanukowitsch's government. There is an actual Ukrainian nationalism, even in the East of the ****ry. Only as I said previously it's up to the Ukrainians to put their own haouse in orders, and not wait for the others to do it for them!

It's true that the East-Ukrainians don't want to become part of russia (of course Abkhazians and Ossetians want to become part of Russia, because Georgia is still a threat to them and they don't feel Georgian at all). They feel and they are Ukrainians, not Russians.
BUT the Russian-speaking and russified Ukrainians in the south and east are a large part of Ukrainians, maybe even the majority. They are the ones who voted for Yanukovitch (who is, by the way, also Ukrainian and don't want to give up independence of Ukraine), and they most probably would vote for him again.
The people demonstrating in Kiev are not necessarily the voice of the people as they are presented in the Western press, they are the voice of the opposition and the West of the country. But, I think, they are a minority. The majority wants closer ties to Russia, without giving up independence. Russia can offer them more than the West, not only on short term but also on long term. But, once again, they are Ukrainians, just like Kasakh are Kasakhs, Armenians are Armenians and Belarussians and Belarussians. The customs union with Russia is advantageous for all parties involved, and it doesn't mean anyone has to give up its independence. on the contrary, the EU requires much more conditions for candidate member states then the Eurasian customs union does.

[pigeonhole]

Belarussians and Belarussians.

I am not too sure about Bielorussians myself. Seen from Western Europe, I don't see very well what differentiates Bielorussians from "great Russians" , could you maybe explain to me the difference?

[Muscovite]

pigeonhole, takeo3

nlike the Abkhazians or the South Ossetians

The first are much more independent from Russia and were really independent from Georgia since 90s.

I'm afraid that these people in the East are less active. And some of them also may personally dislike the current president and prime-minister.

The latter have a son, who lives in Austria. Some people are angry on this fact.

The problem is that Europe gave these students in Kiev a dream about there future. This dream may be unrealistic, but they become crazy about it. And other people want to save old partnership with Russia, they are more realistic but they are less active.

[boxus]

Originally Posted by takeo3

it's not because the mainly conservative south and the democratic north are divided over many issues that the us needs to split, don't you think so?

They tried to split many years ago, a civil war brought them back to the US.

Also, it is not near as divided, even the most conservative states (or should say those that vote Republican), still of upwards 40% or more who will vote liberal (or should say Democratic). Also, there is no environment of loyalty to another country or anything, just to the ideology of what the US should/ought to be in their mind.

With Ukraine it is different. Ukraine was a solid peice of the Russian Empire, then a line drawn as a Soviet Republic, then independence; that magic line does not make someone feel loyalty nor obligation to Ukraine over Russia, especially when the person considers them self ethnically and culturally Russian. The loyalty will always be with Russia. Ukraine is not the only former Soviet republic with this issue, all of them have it.

A split would be ideal, as the magic border line does not represent reality. However, there is no serious talk of a split, but venture into eastern and south eastern parts of Ukraine, I have seen vocal and visual support for integration with Russia. Also remember, not everyone in Ukraine are Ukrainian, some people have had a rather conflicting history with Ukrainians, not that this history is relevant now.

[Osito]

Last I heard it was not part of the EU, and had also not been invited to join. I'm glad things changed. And I too, am glad Russia dislikes it.

[boxus]

Originally Posted by takeo3

it's geopolitics, if the EU can snatch Ukraine from Russia, it means weakening Russia's position in Europe.

I do not see why Russia (and the EU) need to be on a constant polar of each other. Russia and the EU have an integrated history, and share much in common. I see Russia as part of Europe though many Russians and Europeans do not.

This Russia-Europe split goes back to religious issues, monarch issues, and the Soviet period (I do not know why Russia gets pinned alone for Soviet activities). But really, they are much similar than what a lot of poeple would like to believe.

Look at France and the UK (England); their hsitory of battling against each other goes way back, for most of their history they were opposing forces. Look at Germany (and the previous monarchs), not much needs to be stated regarding their history and Europe.

[Muscovite]

On Ukrainian history:

Myths of National Consolidation, the Holodomor, and the Holocaust: A Response to Roman Serbyn | Current Politics in Ukraine

[takeo3]

Originally Posted by pigeonhole

Belarussians and Belarussians.

I am not too sure about Bielorussians myself. Seen from Western Europe, I don't see very well what differentiates Bielorussians from "great Russians" , could you maybe explain to me the difference?

The difference is certainly as decisive as between Ukrainians and Russians. Belorussians are more "European", during their history they have undergone quite a lot of Polish and Lithuanian influence. Russians have undergone more "Asian" (tatar, Mongolian, Ugrian, Caucasian, etc.) influence, this difference is still quite obvious, eventough subtle, especially for westerners. Belarussians can be called Russians with a European, western touch. Still they are toroughly Slavic and Eastern European, but less "eastern" and cosmopolic then Russia.