Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It's a subsidy nonetheless.... either way people think the wage is 485 euros when in reality it's not.
Miminum wage in Portugal unlike 485 is actually more because people work 11 months and get paid 14. In reality it's the same as saying someone earns monthly 565 euros per month. That's the minimum wage, unlike the 485.
I see it recurrently, especially in economic graphs of authors trying to compare other minimum wages, that this variables are never adjusted.
I'm not saying its low or high, but we can see that the cost of minimum wage in Portugal is pretty similar to that of United States and other countries which usually are perceived of higher wages.
The example I gave of someone in France that earns 36000 euros is evident as well. His TOTAL Pay in reality is much much higher (above 80k). The reality is he gets to see much less of that income because of taxes, while in the US taxes are much much much lower (6-7% of income in US for social security only versus ~55% in France for example or 24% in Portugal for that matter).
The "social" programs have to be paid from somewhere.
Anyhow, I think quality of life might be better here. I do think I live in a small paradise here in Lisbon/Portugal. The more I travel and the more I live in other countries the more I get to acknowledge that.
Like you said, I don't think bigger cars, bigger house, etc equals better quality of life. I don't even need a car because I can walk or use the subway or train everywhere that matters pretty much. If I end up needing a car, I rent, which doesn't cost much at 10 or so euros a day.
Yes, comparing countries is very difficult, so many differences to correct for.
One can't even compare something as - seemingly - simple as unemployment rates...
Adjusting for the holiday period of (6 weeks in France?) we get a total ADJUSTED cost of 85000 dollars per year.
So you are telling me I cost society 85 000 $ just delivering computers and hardware 35 hours per week? -halfskilled job at best)
I guess in India a guy with the same profession must cost society (with all the adjustments above mentioned, employers contribution to SS, vacations, etc) 1/10th of that! and a lot (I mean A LOT) of people have a comparable situation in France (railwaymen may go in full pension with .... 55! peasants get paid NOT to produce agricultural goods etc etc)
No wonder France is in the doldrums and was just downgraded by financial agencies (AA note now).
My point of view is that I'm enjoying (and countless fellow Frenchmen) those perks because other, hard working nations (yes, Americans among them) are happy to pay for our golden idleness.
I say more power to us Frenchmen!
Adjusting for the holiday period of (6 weeks in France?) we get a total ADJUSTED cost of 85000 dollars per year.
So you are telling me I cost society 85 000 $ just delivering computers and hardware 35 hours per week? -halfskilled job at best)
I guess in India a guy with the same profession must cost society (with all the adjustments above mentioned, employers contribution to SS, vacations, etc) 1/10th of that! and a lot (I mean A LOT) of people have a comparable situation in France (railwaymen may go in full pension with .... 55! peasants get paid NOT to produce agricultural goods etc etc)
No wonder France is in the doldrums and was just downgraded by financial agencies (AA note now).
My point of view is that I'm enjoying (and countless fellow Frenchmen) those perks because other, hard working nations (yes, Americans among them) are happy to pay for our golden idleness.
I say more power to us Frenchmen!
No, you don't cost society 85000 dollars. You "cost" your company that amount of money, because not ontly you're paying your employee taxes, but there is also a hidden tax that you never actually see - the tax the company needs to pay which in France I believe it to be around 50-60%.
As for the 2nd proposition:
Quote:
I guess in India a guy with the same profession must cost society (with all the adjustments above mentioned, employers contribution to SS, vacations, etc) 1/10th of that! and a lot (I mean A LOT) of people have a comparable situation in France (railwaymen may go in full pension with .... 55! peasants get paid NOT to produce agricultural goods etc etc)
Ding ding ding! You just answered the 1 million dollars question ...
With so many subsidies, taxes and so on in place just to be able to employ a person, there are much reasonable alternatives in terms of costs for the company. And this is why jobs are just being relocated, because the COST imputed to the company is just outrageous.
What matters to the company in terms of employing someone is cost. And while you get 36000 euros per year, let's say an American or Indian guy gets 45000 euros for the same job.
Between France (or any other country with high costs of employment) or some other country that the TOTAL COST is lower, then, even though the net salary to the employee is higher it's much better to hire the "more expensive" person in terms of net salary, simply because cost is much lower.
Your 36000 euros, translates that you need to produce more than 85000 dollars per year in order to add value to the company, while someone in the US with the same salary of 36000 the threshold of adding value is much less.
Ultimately what matters to the company is what it costs to employ you, because if you can't add value from production to what it costs to employ you the company is better off shuting its doors.
And here we can see that producing +80000 dollars worth of services and products is no easy feat, it's much harder than adding value when the bar is much lower as of USA or any other countries where social contributions are not as high... and most people don't realize this. When we think in terms of the value number we need to produce in order to be benefitial to the company that we get a real grasp of how hard sometimes it is to have a company located in some areas.
No, you don't cost society 85000 dollars. You "cost" your company that amount of money, because not ontly you're paying your employee taxes, but there is also a hidden tax that you never actually see - the tax the company needs to pay which in France I believe it to be around 50-60%.
According to KPMG, the effective social security rate that employers in France pay on a USD100k salary is 41% of gross salary, not 50-60%. But it's still higher than anywhere else in the world, but total employer cost for a gross salary of 36000 euros isn't quite 85000 dollars, more like 36000*1.4*1.34(exchange rate) = 67,500 dollars.
According to KPMG, the effective social security rate that employers in France pay on a USD100k salary is 41% of gross salary, not 50-60%. But it's still higher than anywhere else in the world, but total employer cost for a gross salary of 36000 euros isn't quite 85000 dollars, more like 36000*1.4*1.34(exchange rate) = 67,500 dollars.
Don't forget the adjustment of the holidays. Regarding the % you're right... it's 60% but shared 20% on employee and 42% on the company... yiiiikes!
I don't know how much is by law in the US in terms of paid holidays but in Portugal it is 4-5 weeks and in France it seems, according to what someone said on this thread, 6 weeks.
Don't forget the adjustment of the holidays. Regarding the % you're right... it's 60% but shared 20% on employee and 42% on the company... yiiiikes!
I don't know how much is by law in the US in terms of paid holidays but in Portugal it is 4-5 weeks and in France it seems, according to what someone said on this thread, 6 weeks.
There is no mandatory vacation time in the US. See here for a country-by-country list, not sure how often this is updated, it seems accurate for Canada. (Actual) median vacation time would be more interesting.
In Portugal I know it's 25 business days mandatory of paid holidays.
In France it seems to be 6 weeks MINIMUM, but in the link you provided it says it can go up to 9 weeks of PAID HOLIDAYS! Damn ... that seems like a lot! If that indeed is true... I cannot even imagine the grasp of being an enterpreuner and the costs of doing business in France.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
