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Old 04-25-2014, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Finland
24,268 posts, read 18,769,589 times
Reputation: 11103

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miserere View Post
Yes, from Stalingrad onwards...a bloody retreat.
No, from June 1944 onwards. The systematic "no retreat" killing was in place on both fronts, and also in Italy. Stalingrad was nothing compared to the last year of the war.

 
Old 04-25-2014, 10:10 AM
 
Location: London
4,360 posts, read 3,649,067 times
Reputation: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miserere View Post
France was defeated by their own politicians (Renault, Pacifists, Front Popoulaire), not by Germans.
Great Britain had similar politicians (Chamberlain), but it was an island.
Chamberlain declared war on Germany.
Quote:
It would have been interesting to check how valiant the British were as a continental nation....if we take into consideration Dunkirk....they would have lasted far less than France.
If the UK was not surrounded by water the defence would be different. In 1940 UK land forces accounted only 9% of the total allied in the Battle of France.
Quote:
So when Germans were threatening France, the country was sharply divided.
WWI left a jaded and tired country, and the middle class was "protofascist" (scared of communists and socialists and looking for a military figure).
The French army was far larger and better armoured than the German. It was poorly led.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamford View Post
Britain itself was being attacked when Chamberlain sought appeasement,
The UK was not being attacked in 1938.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamford View Post
the French had a very effective and often overlooked resistance made up of some incredible brave individuals.
Very true.
 
Old 04-25-2014, 10:26 AM
 
Location: London
4,360 posts, read 3,649,067 times
Reputation: 1982
France's quick defeat in 1940, the formation of the Vichy collaboration in which US, UK and Free French troops fought, and the later withdrawal from NATO. This all helped paint a negative picture of France. DeGaulle did unify the French people and help them gain some dignity although in a negative way to the rest of the world.

The US and UK allowed the French to be one of the four powers than occupied Germany after WW2 and have a big say as an equal. They didn't have to and it would have been understandable to have eliminated them after Vichy. But the French continued have an attitude. They were angry with themselves. When you are angry with yourself you take it out on others.
 
Old 04-25-2014, 10:35 AM
 
Location: London
4,360 posts, read 3,649,067 times
Reputation: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamford View Post
Okay

I am British and France is only a short distance away.

Normandy was even ruled by King John for a period and we were invaded by them.

There is a large French population in London, they even have their own MP in the French Parliament representing them, and the South Kensington area of London is the epicentre of the French population in London.
In a speech last year, Boris Johnson, Mayor of London, recalled a meeting with France's former prime minister, Alain Juppe, who was mayor of Bordeaux at the time.

Juppe told him, Johnson said, that he had the honour of representing 239,517 people in Bordeaux, the ninth biggest city in France.

"I got the ball back very firmly over the net, folks," said Johnson, "because I said there were 250,000 French men and women in London and therefore I was the mayor of the sixth biggest French city on earth."
BBC News - Is London really France's 'sixth biggest city'?
 
Old 04-25-2014, 10:56 AM
 
554 posts, read 686,846 times
Reputation: 626
Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
The US and UK allowed the French to be one of the four powers than occupied Germany after WW2 and have a big say as an equal. They didn't have to and it would have been understandable to have eliminated them after Vichy. But the French continued have an attitude. They were angry with themselves. When you are angry with yourself you take it out on others.
It was political too. The US and the UK accepted a lot of things from De Gaulle because they knew if De Gaulle didn't became the "hero", communists would. France was very close to choose the USSR instead of the US after the war. Most resistants were communists and the biggest political figures were socialists (but people forgot they were one of the reason France were defeated so quickly as well).
 
Old 04-25-2014, 11:01 AM
 
Location: London
4,360 posts, read 3,649,067 times
Reputation: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Devil View Post
D-Day.....no effect on the War. Nazis were already defeated

Western propaganda.
What an ill-informed statement.
 
Old 04-25-2014, 11:05 AM
 
Location: London
4,360 posts, read 3,649,067 times
Reputation: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annuvin View Post
I see another history revisionist has crawled out of the woodwork.

If the U.S. had abstained from WWII, Europe would be living under swastika right now. End of story.
Oh my God! Another one who got his history from Hollywood films.

Quote:
As for France, they rolled over and gave their country to Hitler without firing a single shot.
Please read about the Battle of France.
 
Old 04-25-2014, 11:09 AM
 
Location: London
4,360 posts, read 3,649,067 times
Reputation: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by xander.XVII View Post
Just take out war of 1812 (which ended in a draw but with the White House burnt),
No the British won that. They did what they aimed to do. And took the war into the White House.
 
Old 04-25-2014, 12:06 PM
 
1,471 posts, read 1,628,291 times
Reputation: 755
Not really, the French army was bigger, much bigger than the German army, but not better armoured....

Chamberlain declared the war after Hitler provoked him many times, in fact, I believe, just my opinion, that his attitude in Munich (and also the American attitude, isolationism) provoked the war. Hitler thought that Chamberlain and Renault were just idiots, little children, cowards. Chamberlain was imbecile, he told Benes to be a "good little Czech"...and after Munich he declared "I think that Mr. Hitler missed the train".

If the UK had not been an island, perhaps they would have lasted one week more....judging the fact that German drank all the wine stored in cellers in France...whisky could have done some wrong among their ranks when in Scotland...but who knows?

As to the war of 1812, the only country that lost, as usual, was Spain. Jackson invaded Florida "to reppeal the Creeks". Spain also helped Indians against squatters and Florida was a haven for them.

You are right about the attitude of the French, before they always exagerated their grandeur and jingoism..and all was crushed..

Last edited by Miserere; 04-25-2014 at 12:16 PM..
 
Old 04-25-2014, 12:31 PM
 
1,514 posts, read 999,241 times
Reputation: 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
France's quick defeat in 1940, the formation of the Vichy collaboration in which US, UK and Free French troops fought, and the later withdrawal from NATO. This all helped paint a negative picture of France.
Very true, but the Belgians, Norweigans, Dutch were also defeated very quickly and also had large collaborationist movements. LIkewsie, the British were not saved by the British army, but by a convenient 30 mile wide anti tank ditch.

What many people dont realize is that the French used to be the most violent country in western Europe. The violence came from both crime, vengenace feuds in the south, and from duels amongst a culture obsessed with honor and insults.
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