I'm sorry for a silly in some sense question but anyway...how do Germans feel about Russians? (people, work)

[skiffrace]

@Muscovite:

You make many good points:

"Why Andrew Jackson killed so many Indians and why his portrait is still on 20 dollar bill?". Or "Why the USA troops used Agent Orange during the infamous war till 1971?"

or

In France a lot of people supported fascism and Nazi. Ford and General Motors and other the USA companies collaborated. They helped Hitler to stay in power no less than the support of Stalin.

In fact, if you look long and hard, you will find awful deeds in the history of virtually any nation. Let's take the peaceful and prosperous Sweden, for example. Does anybody remember that Swedes invaded, burned, raped and devastated Poland in the 1655-1660? Or that they did the same thing to Russia in 1720?

What matters however, is what lessons did they learn, and how they apply TODAY!

The Germans and Austrians remember the atrocities they committed during the WW2. They do it not because the like the memories, but as a warning not to do it again.
Now, look at Russia. How often does Russian mainstream media (as opposed to small, independent outlets) mention the Russia's co-responsibility for starting the war? How about Katyn massacre?
The average Russian, whether young or old, thinks "We liberated Europe from Fascism". Well, the "liberated" nations don't view it this way, but to Russian eyes that is "ingratitude".
Furthermore, how about current foreign policy? Invasion of Georgia in 2008, under the well-practiced (in Stalin times) excuse of "protecting the minorities". Strong-arming and perpetual messing in Ukraine, despite the wishes of that country to be left alone.
Did you return to Finland the territories you invaded in the Winter War of 1939?
What about the Kuril Islands, an eternally Japanese land grabbed after WW2.
We could go on and on...

I'm upset that there are people so strongly prejudiced against the country where I live

Prejudiced? Perhaps a little bit. However, all prejudices will be abandoned when Russia becomes true democracy, with free elections, free press, and open exchange about the history, including the honest admission of its sins, just as Germany is today.

[Muscovite]

@skiffrace
Thanks.
1. Yes, Germans do. But Americans? Sometimes I doubt. And correct me if I am wrong, there was no pardon for Hiroshima bombings. And it was a crime.
And so was to use Agent Orange in the 60's.

And Germans didn't close all their industrial concerns, just because industrial bosses supported Nazi.

Our industry was build by tyrannic methods. Was it the reason to destroy it? No.

If Russians glorify the industrialization, it's mostly because they are angry that some corrupt people destroyed more that should have been destroyed.

2. Russia made pardon for Katyn several times.
The excellent movie about Katyn was shown on TV. Indeed, at first there was an unofficial ban, but later the situation improved. I think the constructive position of Donald Tusk helped in this situation. That's why I praise Tusk and Komorowski against Kaczynski.

3. Ukraine is a country, where the situation isn't so easy. It has Russia speaking regions, including the Crimea, which was Russian before the second half of 20th century. There some villages on the border between the two countries, where people live together, the husband is from Ukraine and the wife from Russia.
We should investigate all pluses and minuses for any choice of Ukraine.

4. On Kuril Islands.

The Yalta Agreement, signed by the US, Great Britain and the Soviet Union, stated:

The leaders of the three great powers – the Soviet Union, the United States of America and Great Britain – have agreed that in two or three months after Germany has surrendered and the war in Europe is terminated, the Soviet Union shall enter into war against Japan on the side of the Allies on condition that: [....] 2. The former rights of Russia violated by the treacherous attack of Japan in 1904 shall be restored, viz.: (a) The southern part of Sakhalin as well as the islands adjacent to it shall be returned to the Soviet Union; [....] 3. The Kurile Islands shall be handed over to the Soviet Union.

Japan—as well as the US—claimed that the Yalta agreement did not apply to the Northern Territories because they were not a part of the Kuril Islands, although US geographers have traditionally listed them as part of the Kuril chain.

And then:

During the 1956 peace talks between Japan and the Soviet Union, the Soviet side proposed to settle the dispute by returning Shikotan and Habomai to Japan. In the final round of the talks, the Japanese side accepted the weakness of its claim to Etorofu and Kunashiri and agreed to settle for return of Shikotan and the Habomais, in exchange for a peace treaty. However, the Americans intervened and blocked the deal.

Kuril Islands dispute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[erasure]

Originally Posted by skiffrace

What about the World War 2. Do people in Russia and Germany know\care\remember what they have done to each other at that time?

Yes, they do. Since Germans are already speaking for themselves here, I can say that Russians - the older generations, that grew up in Stalin's and Khrushev's time had a lot of negativity towards Germans, in spite of official politics. Things stared changing somewhat only with Brezhnev generation; there was already a split among the younger generation; some were still set in the way their families raised them and some already didn't have any particular negativity.
The way I have been raised for example by my grand-parents ( and they were from the war generation) - when I was younger, I remember walking to another side of the street as soon as I'd heard German language anywhere around. Not that my family ever taught me that - but it was very unsettling to know that there was the whole race of people out there that wanted to suck my blood and spit out the bones.

Any conclusions\lessons for the future?

There couldn't be any lessons learned by Russians from that war, really ( after all it was a disaster of biblical proportions for them,) other than probably to become even more weary that there is nothing good coming to them from the West, and if their own rulers are not merciful to them, the enemy is even less so; it's not out there to help, in spite of all the sweet talk.

[erasure]

Originally Posted by skiffrace

I have watched quite a few German and Russian WW2 movies. The German movies (ex. Stalingrad, Das Boot) are a parabole for the war itself: things start great for the protagonists in the movies, just as Germany initially fell in love with Hilters theatrics, and became dazzled by the initial success in the war. As the time goes on, things deteriorate however, to ultimately end in collapse and death. German WW2 movies are an honest attempt to deal with the past.

Russian movies are different. Not one even remotely mentions Russia's co-responsibility for starting WW2 (first through Rapallo Treaty, then through Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact). Russia is always presented as peace-loving "victim" of German invasion in June 1941. The Russian movie protagonists are always heroes, with hardly any human (as in 'contradictory') emotions.

You know, there is a guy on History forum, who received $5,000 for being "the most informative poster" here. As far as I am concerned, these are the best $5,000 in America spent for educational purposes. It's very refreshing to know that not all Americans are learning about the WWII from the movies - they actually do the research. I've learned a great deal of additional material from that particular poster about the WWII, so my advise for you would be to ask him some questions before coming here and pushing your own opinions, based on clearly poor knowledge of a subject.

Major parts of Russian population see Stalin as a "strong leader" who "industrialized the country" and "made trains run on time".

Because he was a strong leader, who industrialized the country, in spite of the other part, or rather with the help of Gulags. So both parts are true. One can't be stated without the other.

PS. I don't know about the "train running on time" thing. I'm always late here in the US. So Stalin would have probably killed me as a lost case.

Never mind the 30 million murdered in Gulags, or the nations

Source about those "30 million murdered in Gulags" please, because all those blown-up figures made up by Western propaganda is just that - propaganda.

(Baltic republics, Caucasian and Central Asian republics, Finland etc.) invaded and enslaved by Russia - policy started under Tsars, and continued under communists.

United States ( originally ) is the land that has been invaded and enslaved by the English ( uhmm, sorry -cleansed from the indigenous population; the slavery part came later.) Policy under British monarchs you know - do I hear your laments at this point? If not, then why?

But how can Russians be reminded of their true past if the mass media are controlled by Putin - "Stalin-lite".

"True past" according to your own agenda I suppose, because Russians are quite aware of their own past. It's another thing how they view it.

As for other countries, such as Poland, Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania or Estonia - are you surprised they are fearful and distrustful of the 2 huge powers to their east and west. Reading the history of 20th century shows why.

Poland - Latvia-Lithuania - yes, that's quite understandable; they become "collateral damage" ( using American language here,) when Russians and Germans are setting their own scores, but nice try to squeeze Ukraine there as well.

That's also the reason that the Poles, Lavians, Lithuanians and Estonians (overwhelmingly), and Ukrainians (strongly) support joining the European Union - at least some kind of guarantee the history won't repeat itself.

So they are trying to join Germany with other words, hoping that it'll protect them from Russians at this point in history. .

[erasure]

Originally Posted by risotto11

I think German attitudes towards Russia are similar to general attitudes towards this country in Europe: Russia is seen as big, hungry and angry polar bear that's somewhere in the east, too big to ignore but we all wish it would just go away.

No, that's what Eastern Europeans usually think, so don't project your own fears on Germans.
They feel more secure of course when it comes to Russia.

P.S. ( Ugh-mm... my bad - that was "Central Europeans" according to the standards of "New Europe," innit? )

[André89]

Sadly, that young russians want to know more about Europe and visit this forum can see here anti-russian posts by the "new" posters like risotto, who looks like a typical eastern european who always offended by Russia.

[skiffrace]

pushing your own opinions, based on clearly poor knowledge of a subject.

The Treaty of Rapallo didn't happen?
Or the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?
Russia did not invade Poland from the east 3 weeks after Hitler invaded from the west?
Or invaded Finland 3 months later?

The above are inventions of "western propaganda"? Or clever hacks of Wikipedia?

Source about those "30 million murdered in Gulags" please, because all those blown-up figures made up by Western propaganda is just that - propaganda.

Poor Russia, always defamed by the "western propaganda". Nobody will ever know exactly how many died in Gulags, perhaps 5 millions, perhaps 40, but millions of your own people, (to whom you have little sympathy), were executed by NKVD through the shot to the back of the head, or slowly froze and starved to death.
Between 3 an 7 million people were starved to death during Stalin-ordered Enforced collectivization in Ukraine alone. And you wonder why Ukraine wants little do do with you.

[Stalin] was a strong leader, who industrialized the country, in spite of the other part, or rather with the help of Gulags. So both parts are true. One can't be stated without the other.

Were millions of Britons murdered to industrialize Britain? Or millions of French murdered to industrialize France? How about Germany? Or United States?
But that's irrelevant. The millions murdered in Gulags died for nothing. They starved to death cutting down the forests.
Russia industry was build by foreign engineers [russian engineers were murdered in purges] , with the help of foreign loans, and with the hands of Russian industrial workers. Gulag was an act of murder that built nothing. Here is an example:White_Sea_Baltic_Canal

I will leave the best for last:

Because he was a strong leader, who industrialized the country, in spite of the other part, or rather with the help of Gulags.

So you think killing your grandfathers by millions was justified, as long as the industry was built?
You have no heart, or are on payroll of Putin foreign-propaganda bureau, trolling this forum. Probably both.

[erasure]

Originally Posted by skiffrace

The Treaty of Rapallo didn't happen?
Or the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?
Russia did not invade Poland from the east 3 weeks after Hitler invaded from the west?
Or invaded Finland 3 months later?

The above are inventions of "western propaganda"? Or clever hacks of Wikipedia?


Poor Russia, always defamed by the "western propaganda". Nobody will ever know exactly how many died in Gulags, perhaps 5 millions, perhaps 40, but millions of your own people, (to whom you have little sympathy), were executed by NKVD through the shot to the back of the head, or slowly froze and starved to death.
Between 3 an 7 million people were starved to death during Stalin-ordered Enforced collectivization in Ukraine alone. And you wonder why Ukraine wants little do do with you.


Were millions of Britons murdered to industrialize Britain? Or millions of French murdered to industrialize France? How about Germany? Or United States?
But that's irrelevant. The millions murdered in Gulags died for nothing. They starved to death cutting down the forests.
Russia industry was build by foreign engineers, with the help of foreign loans, and with the hands of Russian industrial workers. Gulag was an act of murder that built nothing. Here is an example:White_Sea_Baltic_Canal

I will leave the best for last:

So you think killing your grandfathers by millions was justified, as long as the industry was built?
You have no heart, or are on payroll of Putin foreign-propaganda bureau, trolling this forum. Probably both.

OK, so now that you've admitted that you are clueless about the real numbers, let me put it in very simple terms for you; if Russia wouldn't have been industrialized in such short time ( in spite of all the victims of this brutal industrialization, and in spite of the death of many,) then EVERYONE would have ended up dead; the country would have been finished all together during that second world war. It's that simple.
And don't compare France or Britain with industrialization in Russia, since those were both developed industrial countries already by the 19th century, while Russia was a semi-colonial, mostly agrarian state before revolution.
I might hate Stalin, I might hate Putin all I want - that's my PERSONAL outlook, but I do see a bigger picture out there, while you are stuck in your little world that you've created in your head. So quit trolling please, and as you've been already told, do not interfere with younger Russians coming here to learn and express their opinions. Particularly when it's the right kind of Russians - friendly, with common sense. If the other kind will show up here, I'll be the first one to complain))))

[iNviNciBL3]

Originally Posted by Muscovite

I'm upset that there are people so strongly prejudiced against the country where I live, as skifracce and risotto11.

Don't get the feeling we're all against your country.

I really love Russia and Eastern Europe, beautiful countries and I wish the US and Russian governments would get along

[Bideshi]

I've lived in Germany for a quarter century, and my firm impression is that Germans have a very low opinion of Russians.