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Old 01-09-2014, 12:24 AM
 
Location: Hong Kong / Vienna
4,557 posts, read 5,101,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skiffrace View Post
What about the World War 2. Do people in Russia and Germany know\care\remember what they have done to each other at that time?
Any conclusions\lessons for the future?
Know: I'm pretty sure every Austrian/German knows what our ancestors have done.
Care: Tricky. Of course we're sorry for people who have lost family members during that time, but then it wasn't our crime directly, so the guilt ends at some point. At least for me.
Remember: Hard to forget when you constantly get remembered.

Conclusions: don't get involved in war or some weird political ****.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:41 AM
 
Location: American Expat
2,189 posts, read 4,702,008 times
Reputation: 1875
Vesti Kavkaza
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Old 01-09-2014, 04:16 AM
 
861 posts, read 978,825 times
Reputation: 307
Steinmeir is a reasonable politician. And so are Tusk and Komorowski. They are much better than Kaczynski.
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Old 01-09-2014, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Winter nightime low 60,summer daytime high 85, sunny 300 days/year, no hablamos ingles aquí
700 posts, read 1,193,638 times
Reputation: 1129
Quote:
Know: I'm pretty sure every Austrian/German knows what our ancestors have done.
Care: Tricky. Of course we're sorry for people who have lost family members during that time, but then it wasn't our crime directly, so the guilt ends at some point. At least for me.
Remember: Hard to forget when you constantly get remembered.
I have watched quite a few German and Russian WW2 movies. The German movies (ex. Stalingrad, Das Boot) are a parabole for the war itself: things start great for the protagonists in the movies, just as Germany initially fell in love with Hilters theatrics, and became dazzled by the initial success in the war. As the time goes on, things deteriorate however, to ultimately end in collapse and death. German WW2 movies are an honest attempt to deal with the past.

Russian movies are different. Not one even remotely mentions Russia's co-responsibility for starting WW2 (first through Rapallo Treaty, then through Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact). Russia is always presented as peace-loving "victim" of German invasion in June 1941. The Russian movie protagonists are always heroes, with hardly any human (as in 'contradictory') emotions.
Major parts of Russian population see Stalin as a "strong leader" who "industrialized the country" and "made trains run on time". Never mind the 30 million murdered in Gulags, or the nations (Baltic republics, Caucasian and Central Asian republics, Finland etc.) invaded and enslaved by Russia - policy started under Tsars, and continued under communists.
But how can Russians be reminded of their true past if the mass media are controlled by Putin - "Stalin-lite".

As for other countries, such as Poland, Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania or Estonia - are you surprised they are fearful and distrustful of the 2 huge powers to their east and west. Reading the history of 20th century shows why.
That's also the reason that the Poles, Lavians, Lithuanians and Estonians (overwhelmingly), and Ukrainians (strongly) support joining the European Union - at least some kind of guarantee the history won't repeat itself.

Last edited by skiffrace; 01-09-2014 at 10:34 AM..
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Old 01-09-2014, 10:52 AM
 
804 posts, read 513,639 times
Reputation: 154
I think German attitudes towards Russia are similar to general attitudes towards this country in Europe: Russia is seen as big, hungry and angry polar bear that's somewhere in the east, too big to ignore but we all wish it would just go away.
I don't think any Europeans believe that Russia at some point will become a progressive, democratic country but rather will stay an oppressive and aggressive regime ready to attack it's neighbors at any convenient moment.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Glucorious View Post
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Old 01-09-2014, 11:14 AM
 
804 posts, read 513,639 times
Reputation: 154
Because Russians and Soviet Union didn't provide hitler with oil, didn't allow Germans to build up Luftwaffe and tanks on soviet territories circumventing Versailles Treaty and did not attack Poland in 1939. They didn't do any of it



Quote:
Originally Posted by skiffrace View Post
I have watched quite a few German and Russian WW2 movies. The German movies (ex. Stalingrad, Das Boot) are a parabole for the war itself: things start great for the protagonists in the movies, just as Germany initially fell in love with Hilters theatrics, and became dazzled by the initial success in the war. As the time goes on, things deteriorate however, to ultimately end in collapse and death. German WW2 movies are an honest attempt to deal with the past.

Russian movies are different. Not one even remotely mentions Russia's co-responsibility for starting WW2 (first through Rapallo Treaty, then through Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact). Russia is always presented as peace-loving "victim" of German invasion in June 1941. The Russian movie protagonists are always heroes, with hardly any human (as in 'contradictory') emotions.
Major parts of Russian population see Stalin as a "strong leader" who "industrialized the country" and "made trains run on time". Never mind the 30 million murdered in Gulags, or the nations (Baltic republics, Caucasian and Central Asian republics, Finland etc.) invaded and enslaved by Russia - policy started under Tsars, and continued under communists.
But how can Russians be reminded of their true past if the mass media are controlled by Putin - "Stalin-lite".

As for other countries, such as Poland, Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania or Estonia - are you surprised they are fearful and distrustful of the 2 huge powers to their east and west. Reading the history of 20th century shows why.
That's also the reason that the Poles, Lavians, Lithuanians and Estonians (overwhelmingly), and Ukrainians (strongly) support joining the European Union - at least some kind of guarantee the history won't repeat itself.
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:35 PM
 
861 posts, read 978,825 times
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I'm upset that there are people so strongly prejudiced against the country where I live, as skifracce and risotto11.

The pact was indeed infamous, but so was the Munich Agreement. In France a lot of people supported fascism and Nazi. Ford and General Motors and other the USA companies collaborated. They helped Hitler to stay in power no less than the support of Stalin.

If the USSR participated in this criminal situation, it was only the one of the participants.


Baltic countries weren't democratic, but autocratic. It was restricted for political parties to make political actions. Democracy was demolished in this countries in the early '30.

We shouldn't forget about the crimes of the dictator, but there were the other crimes. And there were some strange deeds.

Just a small example:

In 1992 the director of CIA decided to came to my country to mock its people. He came to Red Square to made an act of one person parade, celebrating the victory in the Cold War. Quite unfriendly act, I have to say. And made in the year, which was very hard for the people here.

Maybe the current leader of my country is bad, but at last we don't have CIA directors on the Red Square anymore.

I don't meet any American with the question: "Why Andrew Jackson killed so many Indians and why his portrait is still on 20 dollar bill?". Or "Why the USA troops used Agent Orange during the infamous war till 1971?" I want to be friendly to all the people and think that it's a great forum, but such one-sided remarks make me upset.

Rozenn, please don't delete it. I'll stay calm, but I can't stay silent.

Last edited by Muscovite; 01-09-2014 at 03:10 PM..
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:56 PM
 
804 posts, read 513,639 times
Reputation: 154
I don't go to Russian forums trying to persuade Russians to accept my point of view so I don't see a reason for you to come to an American forum and try to sell us some Russian propaganda or feel offended that we don't subscribe to your point of view.
For us, the Soviet Union, led by its largest republic Russia, was an evil empire, denying their own citizens basic freedoms, oppressing other nations and being responsible for aiding the nazis and then starting the WWII.
I am sorry but for me that's good enough reason to be prejudiced and sceptical while the actions of your current dictator, Putin, don't make anybody feel any better about Russia today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muscovite View Post
I'm upset that there are people so strongly prejudiced against the country where I live, as skifracce and risotto11.

The pact was indeed infamous, but so was the Munich Agreement. In France a lot of people supported fascism and Nazi. Ford and General Motors and other the USA companies collaborated. They helped Hitler to stay in power no less than the support of Stalin.

If the USSR participated in this criminal situation, it was only the one of the participants.


Baltic countries weren't democratic, but autocratic. It was restricted for political parties to make political actions. Democracy was demolished in this countries in the early '30.

We shouldn't forget about the crimes of the dictator, but there were the other crimes. And there were some strange deeds.

Just a small example:

In 1992 the director of CIA decided to came to my country to mock its people. He came to Red Square to made an act of one person parade, celebrating the victory in the Cold War. Quite unfriendly act, I have to say. And made in the year, which was very hard for the people here.

Maybe the current leader of my country is bad, but at last we don't have CIA directors on the Red Square anymore.

I don't meet any American with the question: "Why Andrew Jackson killed so many Indians and why his portrait is still on 20 dollar bill?". Or "Why the USA troops used Agent Orange during the infamous war till 1971?" I want to be friendly to all the people and think that it's a great forum, but such one-sided remarks make me upset.

Rozenn, please don't delete it. I'll stay calm, but I can't stay silent.

Last edited by risotto11; 01-09-2014 at 03:49 PM..
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Old 01-09-2014, 03:06 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
77,983 posts, read 69,929,188 times
Reputation: 75762
Quote:
Originally Posted by risotto11 View Post
I don't go to Russian forums trying to persuade Russian to accept my point of view so I don't see a reason for you to come to an American forum and try to sell us some Russian propaganda or feel offended that we don't subscribe to your point of view.
For us, the Soviet Union, led by its largest republic Russia, was an evil empire, denying their own citizens basic freedoms, oppressing other nations and being responsible for aiding the nazis and starting the WWII.
I am sorry but for me that's good enough reason to be prejudiced and sceptic while the actions of your current dictator, Putin, don't make anybody feel any better about Russia today
Is this an American forum? Since when? The owner is Polish. And this subforum is an international one, and a European one. So Moskvitch can post his opinions. I actually thought he made some good points. Andrew Jackson--hahahaha! Good one!

Some people would debate whether the US has become an "evil empire". It even spies on its own citizens, now.

Who was the CIA director that paraded around Red Square? I didn't hear about that. I was in Russia for several months that year, but I never heard about that. I do find it annoying that the US considers that it "won" the Cold War. Frankly, I don't think the Cold War is entirely over. I subscribe to the "the more things change, the more they stay the same" view of US/Russian relations. But that's a topic for another thread.

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Old 01-09-2014, 03:17 PM
 
861 posts, read 978,825 times
Reputation: 307
Ruth4Truth
Thanks. I'm reading two books on American history just now.

It was Robert Gates. I also didn't know it at that time. I was a schoolboy then.
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