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Somebody WILL help Ukrainians to make a decision, either they want it or not.
Who do YOU want their "friends" to be?
"Gotcha"
It is not about who I want, it is about who they want; the US has a history of not acknowledging the wants of the local population; that does not mean Russia is any better, but simply siding with the US does not automatically mean gains for the locals, it can in fact mean even a harsher life for people, the US has backed dictatorships in the past due to policy objectives, and none of those objectives have anything to do with making sure the locals have a great quality of life. The US, you are talking about a country that backs some of the most oppressive regimes in the world like Saudi Arabia.
"But taking a closer look at the substance of the conversation between U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt now that the turmoil in Ukraine is center-stage reminds that the discussion focuses on the disparate opposition leaders and how the U.S. might play them to suit American interests."
See above? That is American interests, not Ukrainian people interest.
It is not about who I want, it is about who they want; the US has a history of not acknowledging the wants of the local population; that does not mean Russia is any better, but simply siding with the US does not automatically mean gains for the locals, it can in fact mean even a harsher life for people, the US has backed dictatorships in the past due to policy objectives, and none of those objectives have anything to do with making sure the locals have a great quality of life. The US, you are talking about a country that backs some of the most oppressive regimes in the world like Saudi Arabia.
"But taking a closer look at the substance of the conversation between U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt now that the turmoil in Ukraine is center-stage reminds that the discussion focuses on the disparate opposition leaders and how the U.S. might play them to suit American interests."
See above? That is American interests, not Ukrainian people interest.
You have forgotten Europen Union.
According to Wiki, Russians are only a minority in the country (about 17%). I know, it's only one of the factors, but an important one, I think.
I'm sure, the majority of Ukrainians are striving to be a part of the European community.
Do you even remember why these protests started?
I find it interesting though, how, post after post, and not on this thread only, you're knocking down the US but avoiding to say anything negative about Russia and Russia's role of what is happening in the Ukraine.
Am I missing something?
Last edited by movingwiththewind; 02-20-2014 at 04:52 PM..
I find it interesting though, how, post after post, and not on this thread only, you're knocking down the US but avoiding to say anything negative about Russia and Russia's role of what is happening in the Ukraine.
Am I missing something?
No, not missing anything. My efforts I admit have been combating the pro-protesters because I believe they are being led down the wrong path by a few wanting a piece of the cake Yanukovich and his cronies have right now, and these protest leaders are using the usual tools of manipulation to do it.
I have no love for the current Russian regime, while Putin served a purpose after Yelstin, he has far out lived his usefulness, and has hampered Russia in progressing to its full potential. Issues Putin should have solve, are now just tools to maintain his power. Not that others waiting to take his place are any better, it is an all around poor situation right now in Russian politics; everyone wants the piece of the billion dollar pie of corruption.
However, Russia is not really going around broadcasting "democracy" like the US is, nor are they making veil attempts at showing self interest like the US is; I think in matters of foreign policy, Russia is more transparent than the US, if for any reason, Russia has never been big on soft power.
Another issue is Ukraine sits on Russia's border, so really this is an issue for Russia and the EU, the US would go nuts if Russia was involved with Mexico for example.
I am all for the push towards the EU, not only for Ukraine, but for Russia as well. But economically speaking, this will be a disaster for Ukraine right now to do. The EU is in no position to assist Ukraine economically, they are hardly managing with current EU countries right now.
The US has different motives all together, basically the neo-con stance of obtaining resources at all costs. It is this neo-con stance that supports the Saudi regime, yet harps all day and night regarding Russia, which looks like utopia (in regards to human rights) compared to Saudi Arabia. The US is more than willing to throw local people under the bus in pursuit of resources.
So to be clear, I have no love of the current Russian and Ukrainian regimes, I think both Putin and Yankukovich are poor leaders who have lived past their time in politics, but I disagree with the course the Ukrainian protesters are taking, and I disagree with the negative reaction towards the actions the Ukrainian gov are doing against the protesters.
No, not missing anything. My efforts I admit have been combating the pro-protesters because I believe they are being led down the wrong path by a few wanting a piece of the cake Yanukovich and his cronies have right now, and these protest leaders are using the usual tools of manipulation to do it.
I have no love for the current Russian regime, while Putin served a purpose after Yelstin, he has far out lived his usefulness, and has hampered Russia in progressing to its full potential. Issues Putin should have solve, are now just tools to maintain his power. Not that others waiting to take his place are any better, it is an all around poor situation right now in Russian politics; everyone wants the piece of the billion dollar pie of corruption.
However, Russia is not really going around broadcasting "democracy" like the US is, nor are they making veil attempts at showing self interest like the US is; I think in matters of foreign policy, Russia is more transparent than the US, if for any reason, Russia has never been big on soft power.
Another issue is Ukraine sits on Russia's border, so really this is an issue for Russia and the EU, the US would go nuts if Russia was involved with Mexico for example.
I am all for the push towards the EU, not only for Ukraine, but for Russia as well. But economically speaking, this will be a disaster for Ukraine right now to do. The EU is in no position to assist Ukraine economically, they are hardly managing with current EU countries right now.
The US has different motives all together, basically the neo-con stance of obtaining resources at all costs. It is this neo-con stance that supports the Saudi regime, yet harps all day and night regarding Russia, which looks like utopia (in regards to human rights) compared to Saudi Arabia. The US is more than willing to throw local people under the bus in pursuit of resources.
So to be clear, I have no love of the current Russian and Ukrainian regimes, I think both Putin and Yankukovich are poor leaders who have lived past their time in politics, but I disagree with the course the Ukrainian protesters are taking, and I disagree with the negative reaction towards the actions the Ukrainian gov are doing against the protesters.
Great post!
As for protesters' actions, sometimes you have to do what you have to do.
"As NBC News' Richard Engel reported, it was front-line demonstrators who shattered a fragile truce just hours after it was announced late Wednesday into early Thursday by the leaders of three political parties who have been leading the anti-government movement since the fall.
“The three leaders who apparently accepted the ceasefire were not in control of that situation," Eugene Rumer of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace said of armed protesters' surge forward, which sparked automatic gunfire from riot police."
A fraction movement will get no where as the minute there is a power vacuum, in-fighting will take place as to who fills that vacuum. This is one of numerous reasons why I am against these protesters. They are being led by a few who have their own self-interests in mind, not the interests of Ukraine and its people.
According to Wiki, Russians are only a minority in the country (about 17%). I know, it's only one of the factors, but an important one, I think.
I'm sure, the majority of Ukrainians are striving to be a part of the European community.
Do you even remember why these protests started?
I find it interesting though, how, post after post, and not on this thread only, you're knocking down the US but avoiding to say anything negative about Russia and Russia's role of what is happening in the Ukraine.
Am I missing something?
Yes, you are missing an important part, that in many ways it's the US fault ( the direct US involvement) in Russia's internal affairs twenty years ago, the consequences of it that led to today's Russian politics and corruption. Russians are voting for Putin for a reason that you might not be familiar with, but it doesn't mean it's not there. So now pointing at Russia as the source of all evils, and trying to protect "the good Ukrainians from "big bad Russia" is yet another attempt to isolate Russia and to finish her off, the way I see it. Something that didn't quite work out back in the nineties, and I don't believe it will.
"The Constitutional Court of Ukraine (Ukrainian: Конституційний Суд України) is the sole body of constitutional jurisdiction in Ukraine. The Constitutional Court of Ukraine interprets the Constitution of Ukraine and decides whether laws and other legal acts are constitutional."
Not my words. The amendments were a legal act determined unconstitutional by the constitutional court.
As I wrote above constitutonlal cort may not change constitution itself. Especially after 6 years of constitution changed. It was anti constitutional decision, one step to dictatorship.
I do not have an understanding? Only lived in psot-Soviet countries for many years, own property there, speak fluent Russian, half of my family being spread out in Ukraine, Russia, and Central Asia, and travel there all the time, let alone all the academic history stuff I have gone through, I assure you I have quite an understanding of the Soviet zone.
No, you don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus
Regarding the 2010 elections:
"The first round ballot was held on January 17 and was internationally widely recognized as meeting democratic standards."
"According to all international organizations observing the election, allegations of electoral fraud in relation to the first round ballot were unfounded, they declared that the conduct of the elections was within internationally recognized democratic standards and a testament to the will of the people of Ukraine.[155][156][157]"
"The Ukrainian Central Election Commission and international observers found no evidence of significant electoral fraud and said that the voting and counting was fair.[132]"
For whom this text from wiki posted ? Did someone say that 2010 president election was unfair ? The time from 2004 to 2010 after "orange revolution" was at least very similar to "democratic process". President Yuschenko provided possibility for fair election in 2010. Soviet and Russia-oriented people elected Yanukovich (49% vs 45,5%) and he began to prepare for the ufair election in 2015 at once.
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