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People elsewhere have this fantasy about Nordic countries: that everything is clean and orderly, mininimum income gap, everyone is taken good care of (from cradle to grave). They don't have the crime in the US or the economic crisis in Mediterranian countries. They are not even as cold as Canadian cities!
I have a friend who works in Texas and was assigned a job in Oslo for one year. He told me he couldn't wait to get out of there and return to Houston, the reason being the 1. very high cost of living for the income level. So high that even eating beef is some sort of a luxury thing to do because it is so much more expensive than in the US. 2. very short day hours during the winter.
I know that the QOL rankings usually have cities like Oslo and Stockholm very high on the list, but considering Vancouver is always top 3 I don't trust that list very much because it doesn't consider cost of living vs income level at all. Those lists are solely for expats whose income is automatically adjusted for the local COL.
So how are the real quality of life in Nordic countries when cost of living is seriously considered (that matters to most people)? Is food really that expensive and tax really that high?
Last edited by botticelli; 06-03-2014 at 01:44 PM..
Partly because of the number of Scandinavian families and spouses in my neighborhood, I am skeptical of those QOL lists. In fact, just before typing this I came home to see my neighbor and his Norwegian GF on a visa having professional photos being taken of them. I know come across Scandinavians who have gone to great lengths to live here, yet less commonly come across people who have moved from areas of my own country like Oregon, California, Nevada, Hawaii, Washington, the Dakotas, etc.
Partly because of the number of Scandinavian families and spouses in my neighborhood, I am skeptical of those QOL lists. In fact, just before typing this I came home to see my neighbor and his Norwegian GF on a visa having professional photos being taken of them. I know come across Scandinavians who have gone to great lengths to live here, yet less commonly come across people who have moved from areas of my own country like Oregon, California, Nevada, Hawaii, Washington, the Dakotas, etc.
Most Scandinavians are only interested in living and working in certain parts of the United States, like NYC, California (LA and Bay Area) and Florida. I have never met any Norwegian who dreamed of working in Texas or Oregon.
Partly because of the number of Scandinavian families and spouses in my neighborhood, I am skeptical of those QOL lists. In fact, just before typing this I came home to see my neighbor and his Norwegian GF on a visa having professional photos being taken of them. I know come across Scandinavians who have gone to great lengths to live here, yet less commonly come across people who have moved from areas of my own country like Oregon, California, Nevada, Hawaii, Washington, the Dakotas, etc.
That could be because it's harder to for US citizens to get a job or permanent residency in EU countries. Just a guess. And how would you come across them anyway, if they no longer lived around you or worked with you, or crossed your path?
But seriously, the quality of life in those countries can be good if you have a good job, don't mind paying through the nose in taxes, don't mind gloomy weather and dark days in the winter, and don't mind relatively limited dining/food options and entertainment options. But is the quality of life that much better in rural areas of the US? Comparing apples to apples, is the quality of life any better in Alaska or North Dakota? I've heard scary stuff about life in Alaskan villages. It can't be that bad in the Nordic countries.
The thing that would bug me about those countries is that I've read in many sources that the society is extremely conformist, and people tend to be very inhibited. So inhibited that the only time they can really cut loose and have fun is when they have a fair amount of alcohol in them. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Well Norway is an extreme example. The COL is 30% higher than in all the other Nordic countries, and not comparable with the region as a whole.
I understand that high taxation may be annoying for a person who works only a year, and don't see a return of the tax money, but the general populace is quite content. Free education, good pensions and social handouts, good public transport and the safety as a whole. You can't starve to death in the Nordic countries, so there's no reason to go burglaring or mugging. The taxation is also highly progressive, and actually you pay a couple of % less income tax in Finland than in the US if you're working poor. The middle class pays quite the high a tax, but as I said, you also get so much in return that has to be considered. I'll rather have it this way than save 20,000€ for college funds so my kids can get an education.
I think your friend's exaggerating a bit. Considering that the Nordic countries consume one of the most meat per capita in the world, it can hardly be considered a luxury product. If you pay 10€ for 500g of tenderloin, I don't think anyone will file bankruptcy for that.
Coming from Texas, the change in daylight may come as a shock, I admit that, but for someone coming from the mid-latitudes it's not that dramatic. November and December are usually extremely gloomy and the days short, but come January there's usually some snow on the ground that lightens up the environment. Oslo gains almost 2 hours of daylight in January alone, and 2 hours 20 minutes in February, so the days grow longer quite rapidly. So it's not like it's pitch dark the whole winter and suddenly *boom* the daylight is doubled overnight. And of course, we benefit from it in summer, it's nice to have daylight at 22:00.
Most people in the Nordic countries are very well off with a good purchasing power. The capitals are clean, safe and effective with excellent housing, infrastructure, environment and functionality. I don't wonder at all that they fare well on the QOL indexes.
So if you think the Nordics are poor and strangled by enormous taxes, that is just false. And where do you think the tax money goes? They come from the people and given back to the people. It's not like the governments put the money in a bank to rot or buy nuclear weapons with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
But seriously, the quality of life in those countries can be good if you have a good job, don't mind paying through the nose in taxes, don't mind gloomy weather and dark days in the winter, and don't mind relatively limited dining/food options and entertainment options..
Limited dining and entertainment options compared to where? Oregon? Texas? Birmingham? Budapest? Calgary? Why do you think the Nordics are among the happiest and most content people in the world? Because they have no reason to complain. And if the people would want to pay a lot less in taxes, they would've had time to elect different governments during the last 50 years. Trying to dissassemble the Nordic Welfare Model is a 100% guarantee of losing the elections. People actually want to pay high taxes, it hasn't been forced upon them.
I don't like those best city rankings for the same reasons botticcelli mentioned, but on the other hand when you poll citizens of countries about their personal happiness, the Nordic countries always rank very highly.
On the other hand, I have also noticed that for very rich countries they seem to have fairly high levels of outmigration, especially to places like the U.S. and the U.K. This may be related to high educational and skill levels and the fact that they are quite small and therefore offer limited opportunities for go-getters (no matter how high the quality of life is).
Anyway, I think the posters have almost all been North American here so far, so it would be nice to hear from the people who actually live in those countries.
On the other hand, I have also noticed that for very rich countries they seem to have fairly high levels of outmigration, especially to places like the U.S. and the U.K. This may be related to high educational and skill levels and the fact that they are quite small and therefore offer limited opportunities for go-getters (no matter how high the quality of life is).
Good education of course opens a lot of opportunities for migrating, but this is quite small-scale. I don't have the newest stats at hand, but during 2006-2010 62,000 people emigrated from Finland, while 129,000 immigrated to Finland. Compare this to the years 1900-1904 when 63k people emigrated, while the population was half of what it is today. I hardly see this trend as worrying.
Limited dining and entertainment options compared to where? Oregon? Texas? Birmingham? Budapest? Calgary? Why do you think the Nordics are among the happiest and most content people in the world? Because they have no reason to complain. And if the people would want to pay a lot less in taxes, they would've had time to elect different governments during the last 50 years. Trying to dissassemble the Nordic Welfare Model is a 100% guarantee of losing the elections. People actually want to pay high taxes, it hasn't been forced upon them.
Actually, I made that point myself. It's important to compare apples to apples.
The rating of the Nordic countries as the happiest people in the world has been seriously called into question, and refuted by a number of books and studies. Still, for a far northern environment, the quality of life is probably better there than in other countries with a similar environment.
And there's no question that there are better services for special needs individuals, like the handicapped. At least you pretty much get what you pay for, tax-wise. One big reason Americans complain about taxes is that they feel a lot of that money gets wasted. Take California, for example. Some of the highest taxation in the US. But the state is constantly lurching and staggering from one economic crisis and budget shortage to another. I don't understand it.
That could be because it's harder to for US citizens to get a job or permanent residency in EU countries. Just a guess. And how would you come across them anyway, if they no longer lived around you or worked with you, or crossed your path?
You misread my post.
I come across more Scandinavians here in Maryland than people from Washington, or Oregon, or Hawaii, or even California. One would certainly expect to come across Norwegians here more frequently than Washingtonians. Not only because Wahingtonians can pack up and move here freely, but also because Washington is more populous than Norway.
The rating of the Nordic countries as the happiest people in the world has been seriously called into question, and refuted by a number of books and studies. Still, for a far northern environment, the quality of life is probably better there than in other countries with a similar environment.
Questioned by whom? And no need to exaggerate the climate either. A Vancouver, Brussels, Berlin or Paris winter is hardly anything to be cheery about. Not to mention places like Winnipeg, Minneapolis-St. Paul or Novosibirsk. Or a Delhi, Baghdad, Phoenix, Cairo or Beijing summer for that matter. And I'll rather have 70F and sunny in Helsinki than 95F in that polluted sh**hole called Athens.
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