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Old 04-13-2018, 06:28 AM
 
2,377 posts, read 1,588,232 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
...
Lol, looking at your map I don't get how it's always Western countries who criticize other countries for multiculturalism...I mean I'd accept the critic if it was from Japan, Saudi Arabia or Israel but America or UK or so ...
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Old 04-13-2018, 07:06 AM
 
Location: Preussen
218 posts, read 80,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HumbleMerchant View Post
Being born in a staple doesn't make you a horse.

That's a difficult concept for some to grasp.
Was Angela Merkel's father german (his father was polish) ? Is Antoine Griezmann french (he has german surname from his father side and his grandparents on his mother's side are portugese) ? Is David Silva spanish (his one grandparent is japanese ) ? What are americans ? They are all one big mix and most of them do not have american ancestry . People mix and always have mixed . There is no such thing as pure nation . Over 30 percent of people in Poland have surnames of foreign origins and they consider themselves polish . I know plenty of germans with polish surnames who have nothing to do with Poland and consider themselves just germans . People accommodate , they always have , usually already in second generation .
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Old 04-14-2018, 04:41 PM
 
Location: SE UK
7,755 posts, read 6,581,892 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
Was Angela Merkel's father german (his father was polish) ? Is Antoine Griezmann french (he has german surname from his father side and his grandparents on his mother's side are portugese) ? Is David Silva spanish (his one grandparent is japanese ) ? What are americans ? They are all one big mix and most of them do not have american ancestry . People mix and always have mixed . There is no such thing as pure nation . Over 30 percent of people in Poland have surnames of foreign origins and they consider themselves polish . I know plenty of germans with polish surnames who have nothing to do with Poland and consider themselves just germans . People accommodate , they always have , usually already in second generation .
This exactly! I don't know why people find this so hard to understand! I think there are still quite a lot of people on here that a tad racist.
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Old 04-15-2018, 08:04 PM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
3,904 posts, read 2,183,124 times
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I think part of the issue is that some people say that being born in country x makes you x, but that isn't always the case. Would you say that anyone that is born in North America is Native American? That anyone born in Arizona is Navajo? Not all immigrants assimilate, for instance Roma (Gypsy) doesn't necessarily equal Romanian and vice versa. Also I don't think people should have to abandon their ancestral heritage in order to live in another country. For instance my parents immigrated to the US and despite living here for 27 years they still hold on to their Russian identity and have passed it on to me and my siblings, and why should I abandon that identity? I acknowledge my nationality as being American, but I also acknowledge that my history and upbringing is different than most white Americans.

Also I'm not anti immigration, however I am against unchecked immigration and despite what you may think large demographic shifts changes culture and identity, why do you think in the US people still primarily identify by their ethnic group such as Irish American, Italian American, African American, Mexican American, Cuban American, Chinese American, etc. It's pretty rare for people to completely abandon their ancestral identity unless they are so mixed that they can't identify with anyone of them, or it's been such a long time that they themselves are unsure, such as African Americans, but still sometimes, as in the case of African Americans, they create their own new unique identity/culture.
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Old 04-16-2018, 04:06 AM
 
Location: Preussen
218 posts, read 80,924 times
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Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
I think part of the issue is that some people say that being born in country x makes you x, but that isn't always the case. Would you say that anyone that is born in North America is Native American? That anyone born in Arizona is Navajo? Not all immigrants assimilate, for instance Roma (Gypsy) doesn't necessarily equal Romanian and vice versa. Also I don't think people should have to abandon their ancestral heritage in order to live in another country. For instance my parents immigrated to the US and despite living here for 27 years they still hold on to their Russian identity and have passed it on to me and my siblings, and why should I abandon that identity? I acknowledge my nationality as being American, but I also acknowledge that my history and upbringing is different than most white Americans.
No , not everyone born in America is native american but 99 percent of people born in America are americans regardless of their usualy mixed ethnicity . Not everyone raised in Arizona is Navajo but everyone raised in Arizona is arizonian (american) . I understand that not all of the immigrants always assimilate but over 90 percents surely do . How many of those italian americans can speak italian or watch soccer instead of baseball ? You probably could count them on your one hand's fingers . How many irish american watch gaelic games instead of baseball or american football ? Most of them probably do not even know what
gaelic games are . Your parents are first generation immigrants . That is different . They immigrated when they were adults . They were not raised in america , they did not go to schools there . Such immigrants would always be russian first , american second . But you probably feel as much american as you feel russian or even more , right ? You still have connection to your parents' country but you were raised in America . You went to american school , your childhood memories are mostly from america . You speak english without foreign accent . You still speak russian but your children or grandchildren will marry into other american families and will be regular americans . Maybe it will be different . I know instances of people who immigrated in 19th century and still hold to their culture , language , but it is not even one percent of immigrants . 99 percents of immigrants accommodate and their descendats become regular members of society with only their last name revealing their foreign origin , nothing else .

Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post

Also I'm not anti immigration, however I am against unchecked immigration and despite what you may think large demographic shifts changes culture and identity, why do you think in the US people still primarily identify by their ethnic group such as Irish American, Italian American, African American, Mexican American, Cuban American, Chinese American, etc. It's pretty rare for people to completely abandon their ancestral identity unless they are so mixed that they can't identify with anyone of them, or it's been such a long time that they themselves are unsure, such as African Americans, but still sometimes, as in the case of African Americans, they create their own new unique identity/culture.
I am also against unchecked immigration , especially when there is possibilty of terrorist attacks . Everyone should be checked thoroughly .

Black americans were mostly segregated so of course they have slightly different culture but now that they can ba a part of general mainstream american live their culture will also start to blend in with white americans culture . Many whites listen to hip-hop or wear those saggy clothes etc .

This whole irish american , italian american etc is mostly a joke now . Yes in the beginning of the 20th century they could call themselves that but now after so many generations the only thing that connects them to the old country is their last name . They do not know the language , the culture , they watch different sports . After so many generations they mostly do not have any contact with their families on the other side of the ocean . To me they are regular americans who just wants to distinguish themselves but are too lazy to even learn basics of their ancestors languages . To me there is no difference between them and most of other americans .

Last edited by WestPreussen; 04-16-2018 at 04:15 AM..
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Old 04-16-2018, 05:10 AM
 
Location: Monnem Germany/ from San Diego
2,263 posts, read 2,454,674 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
Your parents are first generation immigrants . That is different . They immigrated when they were adults.
Even then, my dad immigrated to the US from Italy following WWII. He had priviously been a prisoner of war in the US.
He was half Italian half French but I grew up not feeling anything but American and only spoke English untill I moved to Germany in 99 at age 35.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
3,904 posts, read 2,183,124 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
No , not everyone born in America is native american but 99 percent of people born in America are americans regardless of their usualy mixed ethnicity . Not everyone raised in Arizona is Navajo but everyone raised in Arizona is arizonian (american) . I understand that not all of the immigrants always assimilate but over 90 percents surely do . How many of those italian americans can speak italian or watch soccer instead of baseball ? You probably could count them on your one hand's fingers . How many irish american watch gaelic games instead of baseball or american football ? Most of them probably do not even know what
gaelic games are . Your parents are first generation immigrants . That is different . They immigrated when they were adults . They were not raised in america , they did not go to schools there . Such immigrants would always be russian first , american second . But you probably feel as much american as you feel russian or even more , right ? You still have connection to your parents' country but you were raised in America . You went to american school , your childhood memories are mostly from america . You speak english without foreign accent . You still speak russian but your children or grandchildren will marry into other american families and will be regular americans . Maybe it will be different . I know instances of people who immigrated in 19th century and still hold to their culture , language , but it is not even one percent of immigrants . 99 percents of immigrants accommodate and their descendats become regular members of society with only their last name revealing their foreign origin , nothing else .



I am also against unchecked immigration , especially when there is possibilty of terrorist attacks . Everyone should be checked thoroughly .

Black americans were mostly segregated so of course they have slightly different culture but now that they can ba a part of general mainstream american live their culture will also start to blend in with white americans culture . Many whites listen to hip-hop or wear those saggy clothes etc .

This whole irish american , italian american etc is mostly a joke now . Yes in the beginning of the 20th century they could call themselves that but now after so many generations the only thing that connects them to the old country is their last name . They do not know the language , the culture , they watch different sports . After so many generations they mostly do not have any contact with their families on the other side of the ocean . To me they are regular americans who just wants to distinguish themselves but are too lazy to even learn basics of their ancestors languages . To me there is no difference between them and most of other americans .
Well there is no denying that other cultural groups have influenced white American culture, the huge influx of Mexicans have influenced our language, food and music, and as you said with African Americans and their “hip-hop or wear those saggy clothes”, now I don’t have an issue with this for the US, we were built as a mixing pot, so there isn’t anything to preserve here besides Native American culture (unless you think they should assimilate and abandon their heritage too?), but for Europe it’s a different story, these are the indigenous people, their land, their culture, their language etc. So if they want to keep it that way (similar to what the Japanese do) then they should be able to do that, but if they want to follow America’s lead and become a mixing pot then I guess they can do that as well. But they need to be aware that when accepting a large group of immigrants who are culturally very different from them, then the assimilation goes both ways.
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Old 04-16-2018, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Preussen
218 posts, read 80,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
Well there is no denying that other cultural groups have influenced white American culture, the huge influx of Mexicans have influenced our language, food and music, and as you said with African Americans and their “hip-hop or wear those saggy clothes”, now I don’t have an issue with this for the US, we were built as a mixing pot, so there isn’t anything to preserve here besides Native American culture (unless you think they should assimilate and abandon their heritage too?), but for Europe it’s a different story, these are the indigenous people, their land, their culture, their language etc. So if they want to keep it that way (similar to what the Japanese do) then they should be able to do that, but if they want to follow America’s lead and become a mixing pot then I guess they can do that as well. But they need to be aware that when accepting a large group of immigrants who are culturally very different from them, then the assimilation goes both ways.
It is exactly the same way with Europe as it is with America . Yes if you put 40 millions poles into Germany , they would most likely not assimilate because they would be so numerous that they would not have to assimilate , but 1,2 millions of poles in 82mln Germany is like drop in the ocean , and they will eventually become Germans . It has happened already and it will happen again . Untill the end of world war 1 over half of a million of poles immigrated to the ruhr area . You know what happened to them ? They are germans now , they do not speak polish anymore , they do not have any family in Poland anymore , they feel and think german . Juergen Grabowski , Anton Turek , Heinrich Kwiatkowski , Alfred Kelbassa and many others . All of them are or were descendants of those poles and they were/are as german as any Mueller or Schmidt could be . Nothing polish left of them besides their last names .The same is going to happen to those poles that are now in Germany . German identity is not threatened at all .

On the other side of the border , Wladyslaw Anders , Jozef Unrug , Karol Olbracht Habsburg , Wlodzimierz Steyer and many other of polish commanders during world war 2 were of german descend but remained loyal to Poland even though they could eaisly choose the easy way out when the war had been lost . They also easily assimilated .


And one more thing , I do not claim that immigrants should abandon their culture . It is just that history showed us that whether in Europe or America immigrants have always assimilated and become regular part of their new countries' societies and not stucked with connection to their"old countries" for tens of generations . It's just the way it has always been and it is not gonna change .

Last edited by WestPreussen; 04-16-2018 at 01:06 PM..
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Old 04-16-2018, 01:14 PM
 
614 posts, read 301,912 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
It is exactly the same way with Europe as it is with America . Yes if you put 40 millions poles into Germany , they would most likely not assimilate because they would be so numerous that they would not have to assimilate , but 1,2 millions of poles in 82mln Germany is like drop in the ocean , and they will eventually become Germans . It has happened already and it will happen again . Untill the end of world war 1 over half of a million of poles immigrated to the ruhr area . You know what happened to them ? They are germans now , they do not speak polish anymore , they do not have any family in Poland anymore , they feel and think german . Juergen Grabowski , Anton Turek , Heinrich Kwiatkowski , Alfred Kelbassa and many others . All of them are or were descendants of those poles and they were/are as german as any Mueller or Schmidt could be . Nothing polish left of them besides their last names .The same is going to happen to those poles that are now in Germany . German identity is not threatened at all .

On the other side of the border , Wladyslaw Anders , Jozef Unrug , Karol Olbracht Habsburg , Wlodzimierz Steyer and many other of polish commanders during world war 2 were of german descend but remained loyal to Poland even though they could eaisly choose the easy way out when the war had been lost . They also easily assimilated .


And one more thing , I do not claim that immigrants should abandon their culture . It is just that history showed us that whether in Europe or America immigrants have always assimilated and become regular part of their new countries' societies and not stucked with connection to their"old countries" for tens of generations . It's just the way it has always been and it is not gonna change .
You can't throw all immigrants into the same boat. Poles and Germans are in the same cultural sphere so it's natural that Poles can adapt rather quickly. This is not the case with North-Africans and Middle Easterners, most of them don't integrate, they create their own parallel societies, most don't become Germans.
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Old 04-16-2018, 02:22 PM
 
5,323 posts, read 1,982,616 times
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Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
I understand that not all of the immigrants always assimilate but over 90 percents surely do .
There is no American culture. Its a menagerie of cultures. Therefore, the so called "assimilation" bar in America is very, very low. You basically need to speak English, not be a complete a-hole (some cultures have trouble with this), mow your lawn, and give lip service to America pop culture when cued to do so.

However, there are many important subcultures that are impenetrable to most immigrants.

Quote:
How many of those italian americans can speak italian or watch soccer instead of baseball ? You probably could count them on your one hand's fingers . How many irish american watch gaelic games instead of baseball or american football ? Most of them probably do not even know what gaelic games are .
De-culturalization is neither something to celebrate nor is it assimilation per se.

Quote:
Black americans were mostly segregated so of course they have slightly different culture but now that they can ba a part of general mainstream american live their culture will also start to blend in with white americans culture .
Very rarely happens in practice.

Quote:
Many whites listen to hip-hop or wear those saggy clothes etc .
I know very, very few Whites like this (actually none as of now). This sort of thing peaked in the 90s and largely died out after. And this is not culture, this is anti-culture because its primary products have negative social effects.

Quote:
This whole irish american , italian american etc is mostly a joke now
How so? There are definitely "white cultures" that many Irish and most Italians have trouble effectively assimilating to. They may be Irish-American and Italian-American, but their heritage still largely defines their social sphere. The trick is that most people cannot see the borders of their social sphere.
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