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Old 09-26-2017, 05:41 PM
DKM
 
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
2,820 posts, read 1,005,409 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
Thanks for stating your view point, for a long time I thought people such as your self believed Russia came in rolling with their tanks and flew their jet planes and bombed Donetsk and Lugansk and killed every person that got in their way. But now that you explained it, it sounds logical and realistic, I don't know all the facts so I don't know what you are saying is true but I'm pretty sure most of what you said is.
There are Ukrainians who have their own propaganda who would say it was all Russian army who is fighting them in the east and that nobody wants them there. Not true. Its closer to a civil war than Ukraine will admit. But it would not even be happening without Russia because the rebels would have lost 3 years ago.
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Old 09-26-2017, 06:39 PM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
3,929 posts, read 2,211,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM View Post
There are Ukrainians who have their own propaganda who would say it was all Russian army who is fighting them in the east and that nobody wants them there. Not true. Its closer to a civil war than Ukraine will admit. But it would not even be happening without Russia because the rebels would have lost 3 years ago.
Couldn’t that be said about any civil war? The west supported rebels in Syria and Libya, if it weren’t for the west Assad and Gaddafi would’ve been able to get a handle on it, just like with out Russian support in Ukraine, donbas would be under Ukrainian authoritiy by now. But also the rebels don’t have as many local supporters as Russians claim. I doubt Odessa and Kharkiv want to join “novorossiya.” I think most Ukrainians still believe in a united Ukraine even if they are ethnically Russian. I have an Uncle who was born in Donbas area and grew up in Crimea and he is half Russian half Ukrainian and he is very anti Putin/Russia because he see’s that their goal is to split the country in half.
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Old 09-26-2017, 08:59 PM
 
15,034 posts, read 13,621,855 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
Couldn’t that be said about any civil war? The west supported rebels in Syria and Libya, if it weren’t for the west Assad and Gaddafi would’ve been able to get a handle on it, just like with out Russian support in Ukraine, donbas would be under Ukrainian authoritiy by now. But also the rebels don’t have as many local supporters as Russians claim. I doubt Odessa and Kharkiv want to join “novorossiya.” I think most Ukrainians still believe in a united Ukraine even if they are ethnically Russian. I have an Uncle who was born in Donbas area and grew up in Crimea and he is half Russian half Ukrainian and he is very anti Putin/Russia because he see’s that their goal is to split the country in half.
It's not a question whether they "want to join Novorossiya."
It was rather a question back in 2014, if they had to chose between the new government in Kiev or joining Russia ( if they HAD this option for real,) what would they REALLY choose?

Do you understand the meaning of this video for example?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_8_KhrwEPE

Last edited by erasure; 09-26-2017 at 09:11 PM..
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Old 09-26-2017, 11:52 PM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
3,929 posts, read 2,211,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
It's not a question whether they "want to join Novorossiya."
It was rather a question back in 2014, if they had to chose between the new government in Kiev or joining Russia ( if they HAD this option for real,) what would they REALLY choose?

Do you understand the meaning of this video for example?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_8_KhrwEPE
Well definitely very angry people, they are accusing "bandarests" of shooting them right? Do you have any news articles about that event or similar ones? I would be interested to learn more. Anyway just because the nation is divided politically and is showing it very aggressively doesn't mean people actually want the country to divide. There is a lot of mess up sh*t going on in the US but that doesn't mean people wish to see it torn apart. People still believe in a single united states, even if there are some minorities that want an independent California/Texas.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGqM...ctr=1506492984
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Old 09-27-2017, 09:32 AM
 
5,733 posts, read 2,313,681 times
Reputation: 5973
Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
Well definitely very angry people, they are accusing "bandarests" of shooting them right? Do you have any news articles about that event or similar ones? I would be interested to learn more. Anyway just because the nation is divided politically and is showing it very aggressively doesn't mean people actually want the country to divide. There is a lot of mess up sh*t going on in the US but that doesn't mean people wish to see it torn apart. People still believe in a single united states, even if there are some minorities that want an independent California/Texas.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGqM...ctr=1506492984
I think the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians could care less who rules the country so long as it is run well. Its that condition of ignorance again. People are so busy just trying to live they have no time for much else. If you look at who was actually fighting there you will find that a large part of the combatants were people who were forced to fight or radical elements in militias.

It's undeniable that a lot of Russian citizens and Ukrainian expats came from Russia to fight the Ukrainian radicals. The same for the Ukrainians with the exception of the army which had severe problems with recruitment and function.
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Old 09-27-2017, 12:13 PM
DKM
 
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
2,820 posts, read 1,005,409 times
Reputation: 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
Couldn’t that be said about any civil war? The west supported rebels in Syria and Libya, if it weren’t for the west Assad and Gaddafi would’ve been able to get a handle on it, just like with out Russian support in Ukraine, donbas would be under Ukrainian authoritiy by now. But also the rebels don’t have as many local supporters as Russians claim. I doubt Odessa and Kharkiv want to join “novorossiya.” I think most Ukrainians still believe in a united Ukraine even if they are ethnically Russian. I have an Uncle who was born in Donbas area and grew up in Crimea and he is half Russian half Ukrainian and he is very anti Putin/Russia because he see’s that their goal is to split the country in half.
I don't know about most civil wars but there are certainly examples of 2 opposing sides where one minority side has outside support which keeps it from losing. I can think of several off the top of my head but the Korean war was a clear example of this. The reasons for the support are important. Russia has many reasons to prevent Ukraine from keeping control of its borders so you will see that it won't happen (with whatever excuses). Russia attacked Ukraine, forced it into a conditional surrender (Minsk accords which cannot be fulfilled), and tried to spread a sort of counter revolution inside Ukraine. The last thing did not work, but it was tried in Odessa and Kharkiv. Your uncle is like many of my friends and family, former lovers of Russia and now very anti for the same reasons. Novorossiya as a project is dead as there is no support for it.

The remaining areas of Novorossiya are going to be big gainers from trade with Europe as heavy industry gears up for trade with them. You won't find much desire there to be tied to the stagnant and small Russian economy. The Donbas were going to be losers in the Europe trade deal because their economy was geared towards trade with Russia. Donetsk and Luhansk should be brought under UN control and given an opportunity to vote on their future. Crimea too for that matter.
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:22 PM
 
15,034 posts, read 13,621,855 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
Well definitely very angry people, they are accusing "bandarests" of shooting them right?
Not only that, they ( the inhabitants of Kharkov) want to know where did these people came from, and who sent them there.
And yes, they are asking each and every of these youth whether they are from Western Ukraine or not, and why did they come there.
So these are the first attempts of the nationalist units to raid into the Eastern part of the country ( in this case they wanted to take over the government building after the coup took place in Kiev,) but you see the reaction of the locals.

Quote:
Do you have any news articles about that event or similar ones? I would be interested to learn more.
To "learn" what? You could see pretty much the same picture all over Eastern Ukraine, be that Mariupol, Kharkov or Donetsk.


Quote:
Anyway just because the nation is divided politically and is showing it very aggressively doesn't mean people actually want the country to divide. There is a lot of mess up sh*t going on in the US but that doesn't mean people wish to see it torn apart. People still believe in a single united states, even if there are some minorities that want an independent California/Texas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGqM...ctr=1506492984

Who told you so?
It's precisely when the mutual hostility starts flying high, the question of "divorce" comes into place.

Nutty California Picking Up Steam To Leave the Union: Trump Should Send The Troops In!!!

https://yescalifornia.org/

Some White Southerners Are Advocationg For Secession

Of course in the US the issue of "divorce" is much more complex, since the division goes not only within the state lines, but racial lines as well. But in Ukraine's case the demarcation line was pretty clear.
You don't see anyone there waving the Ukrainian flags, do you? As in "no matter what, let's keep the unity." But you can see couple of Russian flags and the St. George ribbon, that soon enough Donbass will wear.

Last edited by erasure; 09-27-2017 at 05:26 PM..
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:33 PM
 
15,034 posts, read 13,621,855 times
Reputation: 6916
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM View Post
There are Ukrainians who have their own propaganda who would say it was all Russian army who is fighting them in the east and that nobody wants them there. Not true. Its closer to a civil war than Ukraine will admit. But it would not even be happening without Russia because the rebels would have lost 3 years ago.
And if not for $ 5 billion that Americans invested in the change of the regime in Kiev and American presence on internal Ukrainian political field, do you think the coup d'etat would have been equally successful?
I mean I remember the speech of MP Oleg Tzaryov, publicly warning the Ukrainian parliament about American takeover and upcoming coup d'etat, before the hell broke loose.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gbVOr6n8Ww

Last edited by erasure; 09-27-2017 at 05:30 PM..
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:36 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
13,356 posts, read 7,016,012 times
Reputation: 4853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
I think the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians could care less who rules the country so long as it is run well. Its that condition of ignorance again. People are so busy just trying to live they have no time for much else. If you look at who was actually fighting there you will find that a large part of the combatants were people who were forced to fight or radical elements in militias.

It's undeniable that a lot of Russian citizens and Ukrainian expats came from Russia to fight the Ukrainian radicals. The same for the Ukrainians with the exception of the army which had severe problems with recruitment and function.
The overwhelming majority of Ukrainians perceive that their country is under attack, so they will readily fight, especially younger Ukrainians.

https://en.censor.net.ua/news/434568..._zone_muzhenko

"I will tell you about the patriotism of the youth. I've decided to replace all 700 servicemen under the age of 20 in the ATO zone. In the end, only 11 agreed to leave, the rest stayed"
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
3,929 posts, read 2,211,473 times
Reputation: 2610
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Not only that, they ( the inhabitants of Kharkov) want to know where did these people came from, and who sent them there.
And yes, they are asking each and every of these youth whether they are from Western Ukraine or not, and why did they come there.
So this are the first attempts of the nationalist units to raid into the Eastern part of the country ( in this case they wanted to take over the government building after the coup took place in Kiev,) but you see the reaction of the locals.



To "learn" what? You could see pretty much the same picture all over Eastern Ukraine, be that Mariupol, Kharkov or Donetsk.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGqM...ctr=1506492984

Who told you so?
It's precisely when the mutual hostility starts flying high, the question of "divorce" comes into place.

Nutty California Picking Up Steam To Leave the Union: Trump Should Send The Troops In!!!

https://yescalifornia.org/

Some White Southerners Are Advocationg For Secession

Of course in the US the issue of "divorce" is much more complex, since the division goes not only within the state lines, but racial lines as well. But in Ukraine's case the demarcation line was pretty clear.
You don't see anyone there waving the Ukrainian flags, do you? As in "no matter what, let's keep the unity." But you can see couple of Russian flags and the St. George ribbon, that soon enough Donbass will wear.
I just wanted some context, all you sent me was a video, a lot of wrong assumptions can be made if taken out of context. Also Those people were interrogated somewhat harshly, whether justified or not. The people of Kharkov were obviously very angry and wanted to hear only one narrative which was somebody paid a bunch of people to start a ruckus and so those people who were round up weren't going to be let go of until they "admitted" that they were paid and whatever else the people of Kharkov wanted to hear. It is very possible that is the case, but I still wouldn't consider that an objective interrogation, lots of emotions getting in the way. Anyway yes I did notice the Russian flags and the lack of Ukrainian ones and yes there probably would've of been a secession if they were allowed to.

Also if you look at the presidential election there isn't a clear demarcation line visible. Poroshenko surprisingly won everywhere, why another oligarch would win after kicking out the previous baffles me, but that's Ukraine I guess.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...n_2014_Map.png

However looking at the voter turn out, it's clear that western Ukraine was much more excited than the east.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...0%B0%D1%85.PNG
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