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Old 09-29-2017, 06:59 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
13,356 posts, read 7,012,684 times
Reputation: 4853

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
Really? How many of those youth fled when the drafts were brought out. 10s of thousands. Many simply bought their way out with their rich parents money. Adults fled the country in droves too. Its all over the news all you need to do is a google search.
Doctors were falsifying documents for money, fathers need to feed their kids and went to Europe.
If what Uzhenko said is even true we all know how gullible an 18 year old can be. Especially an 18 year old scared to death and hopped up on hormones. I'll still take the liberty of calling it garbage and propaganda.
I mean, yeah, of course there's that, too. However, as far as objective measures of such things are concerned, Ukraine does in fact rank quite highly on the list of countries whose citizens indicate that they're willing to fight for their country. That's according to survey data.
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Old 09-30-2017, 10:35 AM
 
5,728 posts, read 2,312,076 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
I mean, yeah, of course there's that, too. However, as far as objective measures of such things are concerned, Ukraine does in fact rank quite highly on the list of countries whose citizens indicate that they're willing to fight for their country. That's according to survey data.
The key words being according to survey data. Kind of vague eh? I know how a military organization works. What the Ukrainian armed forces have now are basically the core of an army. What they have actively involved in the East is a small assembly of nutters being rotated in and out of the front. No more than 15 to 25 thousand. They take care of almost all the heavy lifting. The regular Ukrainian army barely functions. There is no navy and the air Force is decrepit.

Militaries have a way of building their armies. They use terror on the populace, threats of imprisonment, and if necessary Force to meet the needs for cannon fodder. It's the core group on a military and civil level that create the larger army using the tools mentioned above. It has worked well historically in Western societies until recently. The occupation of Iraq found the US army strapped for manpower and damn few American men were willing to step up to go and fight a war that made little sense.

Its because of education and awareness. Most Americans were and still are against the war. I know the Ukrainian people are even better educated than Americans and as we saw in 2014 the effort to build an army in Ukraine that is capable of fighting it's way out of a paper bag let alone defeat the Novorussians is never going to happen.
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Old 09-30-2017, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Finland
24,268 posts, read 18,765,643 times
Reputation: 11103
Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
I have a hard time believing Russia bombed Ukraine, I wouldn't be surprised if Russia supplied the weapons to the rebels, but for Russia to bomb the very people it wants to separate from Ukraine makes no sense? It makes a lot more sense for Ukraine to bomb "traitorous terrorists" Just like Russia bombed Chechnya, Ukraine bombed Donbass.
Cute. If Putin can murder journalists and other dissidents, why not bomb some unknown Ukrainians? Life has always been cheap in Russia.
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Old 09-30-2017, 10:40 AM
 
5,728 posts, read 2,312,076 times
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You can add to that the fact that military minds that don't do surveys agree that if Russia were to invade Ukraine the majority of the population would readily support Russian troops. It is speculated that it would not be Russian troops entering Kiev either.
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Old 09-30-2017, 10:43 AM
 
5,728 posts, read 2,312,076 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
Cute. If Putin can murder journalists and other dissidents, why not bomb some unknown Ukrainians? Life has always been cheap in Russia.
How many journalists have died in Ukraine since 2014? Last I heard it was about 12.
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Old 09-30-2017, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Finland
24,268 posts, read 18,765,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
You can add to that the fact that military minds that don't do surveys agree that if Russia were to invade Ukraine the majority of the population would readily support Russian troops. It is speculated that it would not be Russian troops entering Kiev either.
According to what? What a ridiculous statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
How many journalists have died in Ukraine since 2014? Last I heard it was about 12.
The hell if I know. And I don't care.
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Old 09-30-2017, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
3,928 posts, read 2,209,964 times
Reputation: 2604
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
Cute. If Putin can murder journalists and other dissidents, why not bomb some unknown Ukrainians? Life has always been cheap in Russia.
What this isn't about journalists this is about infrastructure and populations, why would Russia bomb cities that they plan on integrating into the Eurasian Union if not into the Russian Federation and the cities where their supporters live? Do you understand now? If it were Mariupol, sure then you can make a logical argument that Russia bombed it, but no I was talking about the cities of Donetsk and Lugansk you know the cities that the rebels already captured. People bomb cities that contain their enemies not their allies, it would be like saying that Nazi Germany bombed Dresden, do you know how ridicules that sounds!! Sure Hitler is evil but he's not crazy.

Other examples of cities bombed/destroyed

Nazi Germany bombed London because it was populated by enemies
Syria/Russia bombed Aleppo because it contained rebel fighters
Israel bombs Gaza because it contains extremists that bomb Israel
The Union (US) burnt down Atlanta because it was a confederate city
Japan bombed pearl harbor because it contained Americas pacific fleet

or are you trying to say that
Allies bombed London
Syrian rebels bombed Aleppo
Palestinians bombed Gaza
The confederates burnt down Atlanta
America bombed pearl harbor

Let me guess you are one of those people who say its the girls fault when she gets rapped because she was showing to much skin?
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Old 09-30-2017, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
3,928 posts, read 2,209,964 times
Reputation: 2604
The Donbas War Every Day

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MndkmBVG18s

It's not very clear, but the rebels spread out from Donbass and Lugansk cities from day one and never lost control of it.
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Old 09-30-2017, 11:26 AM
 
Location: South Jersey
13,356 posts, read 7,012,684 times
Reputation: 4853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
You can add to that the fact that military minds that don't do surveys agree that if Russia were to invade Ukraine the majority of the population would readily support Russian troops. It is speculated that it would not be Russian troops entering Kiev either.
What "military minds"? I referenced the survey data because it's actual data. See here: Percentage of Europeans Who Are Willing To Fight A War For Their Country - Brilliant Maps

Ukraine ranks even slightly ahead of Russia in this respect (62% of Ukrainians are willing to fight, compared to 59% of Russians).

On the other hand, you are offering only speculation, which seems to have no basis in reality.

I am guessing the "military minds" you are referring to are Russian ones. It seems like many in the Russian military and intelligence community genuinely believe that Ukrainians are more pro-Russian than they actually are. It's really staggering just how much they don't understand about Ukrainians. By some accounts, the Kremlin was genuinely surprised that their actions weren't as well-received in Ukraine as they had expected. It's incompetence. The Russian military is far more incompetent than they'd like to have you believe. An excellent example is Putin showing video of "Russians fighting ISIS" to Oliver Stone, except for the minor, inconvenient fact that the fighters weren't Russian but American! Putin got this from his generals. Its incompetence, plain and simple.
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Old 09-30-2017, 11:27 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,250,780 times
Reputation: 7578
^ you can't argue about Russia with someone from Finland or the Balkan countries. They have PTSD. For them, there is nothing good about Russia and Putin is pure evil. Thinking the worst of Russia irrespective of facts is always preferred and justified. On the other hand, the EU is all roses and sunshine. They won't care about facts because their minds are already made before the debate, on any matter Russia is the evil side.
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