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Old 09-30-2017, 02:03 PM
 
614 posts, read 305,730 times
Reputation: 956

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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
For Russia, the proximity with no buffer region is threatening enough.

It is never about fairness. It is about balance between big powers.

And you didn't answer why Cuba can't voluntarily have missiles of the USSR - shouldn't these countries have the right to make such an agreement? It violated no international laws, did it?
Why it can't have USSR nukes? Well, fyi, the USSR is no more
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Old 09-30-2017, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Finland
24,268 posts, read 18,789,124 times
Reputation: 11103
Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
What this isn't about journalists this is about infrastructure and populations, why would Russia bomb cities that they plan on integrating into the Eurasian Union if not into the Russian Federation and the cities where their supporters live?
Because the people are nothing but useful idiots to the Kremlin. Do you seriously think they give a damn about the rebels? They are already assassinating former leaders of the rebel areas. I'm not saying it's certain, but I wouldn't be surprised.

I sincerely even doubt that Putin "wants" Donbass. He's just uses it as a tool.
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Old 09-30-2017, 02:45 PM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
3,941 posts, read 2,215,703 times
Reputation: 2610
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
Because the people are nothing but useful idiots to the Kremlin. Do you seriously think they give a damn about the rebels? They are already assassinating former leaders of the rebel areas. I'm not saying it's certain, but I wouldn't be surprised.

I sincerely even doubt that Putin "wants" Donbass. He's just uses it as a tool.
again why would they bomb a city under their control?
map of Donbas

^ in the above link you can see that the rebels and what many westerners and Ukrainians claim to be Russian special forces control Donetsk and Lugansk, and the rebels and be extension Russia have complete control of these two cities for the entirety of the war, sure maybe Russia would bomb these cities in the very beginning to take over these cities but that wasn't the case. Also remember Ukrainians are no different than Russians mentally. Ukraine has no problems bombing rebellious cities just like Russia had no problems bombing rebellious Chechnya. I don't know why you think Ukraine is at the same level as western Europe when it comes to human rights. It'd be like saying that Turkey is at the same level as western Europe because they want to join the EU, unless that's what you think? Again I can see a logical claim if you are only talking about the blue cities on that map such as Mariupol, but there is no way that rebels with the help of Russia would bomb the cities they live in, if that were the case why is Ukraine fighting them if they are killing themselves, and for that matter how is Ukraine fighting them? And on top of that what is the F*cking point of this war then!? What is Russia trying to achieve here?
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Old 09-30-2017, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
3,941 posts, read 2,215,703 times
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After doing some further research Ukraine did manage to capture parts of Lugansk, after shelling the city, so it's possible in a counter offensive move that the rebels shelled the Ukrainian controlled parts of the city. And it appears that they also shelled some towns when they were recapturing them. So I'm not dismissing the Rebels of shelling cities, I just want you to understand that the major shelling of Donetsk and Lugansk was caused by Ukraine.
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Old 09-30-2017, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Finland
24,268 posts, read 18,789,124 times
Reputation: 11103
Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
again why would they bomb a city under their control?
map of Donbas
No no, I meant cities in Donbass under Ukrainian control. I think both of us were having a misunderstanding.

Last edited by Ariete; 09-30-2017 at 04:01 PM..
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Old 09-30-2017, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
3,941 posts, read 2,215,703 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
No no, I meant cities in Donbass under Ukrainian control. I think both of us were having a misunderstanding.
Ok thank God, I thought I was loosing my mind.
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Old 10-01-2017, 12:16 AM
 
2,777 posts, read 1,014,411 times
Reputation: 1770
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
^ you can't argue about Russia with someone from Finland or the Balkan countries. They have PTSD. For them, there is nothing good about Russia and Putin is pure evil. Thinking the worst of Russia irrespective of facts is always preferred and justified. On the other hand, the EU is all roses and sunshine. They won't care about facts because their minds are already made before the debate, on any matter Russia is the evil side.
Ariete has a bunch of good points. If anything it is the Russian side that has a habit of deflecting criticism whenever it is brought up, where criticizing Russia is perceived as being anti-Russia . The EU is most definitely not all roses, but the QOL it provides is far greater than what Russia offers by a country mile.
Opinions about Russia within EE, also greatly vary from country to country. Catholic ones have a more negative view, while Orthodox ones have a more positive opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
That was what I meant.

The whole Ukraine crisis, Europe and NATO should take at least 50% responsibilities. But this is what they did: They were aggressively expanding (of that's justified because it is the west, and if Russia expands, it is aggression) to the extent Russia felt threatened: imagine the US sets military base in Ukraine. Then there was some anti-Russia protest in Kiev, CIA etc, like they always do (think about Syria later), jumped to support and fund those anti-government forces and helped them to remove a democratically elected president (they wanted the so-called "rebel" in Syria to do the same thing yet failed) just because he is pro Russia and chose a pro-EU one. When Russia reacted, naturally, these idiots claim it is 100% Putin's fault. Then the west and the US after all the accusation and so called "sanctions", decided it is not worth it to fight for Ukraine and basically recognized the annexation of Crimea, although officially they keep accusing Russia. But the fact is Ukraine was used just as a puppet and now it is left to hang dry by the west. Nobody cares about it.
At least you recognize that no one is 100% responsible on their own accord.
However here's the thing: NATO has a right to expand to other countries and just because they are close to Russia does not make it the authority figure when it comes to these matters. It's also important to understand that many Russians still view any former Soviet republic as their own internal territory,therefore they believe they have a right to make decisions for them.

Of course the reverse is true as well, where Russia or China do have a right to establish a base in Canada or Mexico if they so choose. Both the US and Russia have already flown sorties in close proximity of each other. Russia complained about the presence of US destroyers in the Black Sea, but those were international waters. Anything in excess of 12 nautical miles is not off limits to foreign countries. Russia also had a number of jets off the coast of Alaska, but once again that's international territory.



Quote:
Here is the thing, they don't want Scotland/Catalonia to separate and they want to respect the "will of the people". But when 97% of people in Crimea actually wants to join Russia, people's will doesn't matter any more, because Russia is always bad.
The referendum was complete bogus. If Crimea can only choose between joining Russia or reverting back to the 1992 model, without any option of remaining in Ukraine, then it cannot be called legit. This is regardless of whether a majority wanted to join Russia or not. I can buy that most people may have wanted to join Russia, but with limited options, the referendum becomes questionable.

The other major point that needs to be taken into consideration is the 97% goes beyond the realm of plausibility. It is far too high of a number even in a society that may have more uniform opinions about matters. It is barely removed from the cliche 99% given by many dictators in polls to justify their incredible victories.

Fully agree with you on the discrepancy between different factions as it falls under the "you scratch by back and I'll scratch yours".
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Old 10-01-2017, 12:58 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,262,981 times
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^ with a view like this there is no point in arguing with you.
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Old 10-02-2017, 11:20 AM
 
5,748 posts, read 2,319,937 times
Reputation: 5979
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
^ with a view like this there is no point in arguing with you.
It's conditioning. Especially in MWRs case. When you ask people like that what the solution is you get vague answers usually toeing the same line every time. Russian aggression, oppression of civil rights and whole people such as the Chechens and Georgians. Never mind the fact that Chechen warlords that sprang up in the early 90s were not saints. Never mind that Russian people in Chechneya were brutalized by Chechen thugs mercilessly. Most Russian citizens of Chechnya fled the place in fear of losing their lives. Don't point out the fact that Georgias attack on S Ossetia and Russian peace keepers there was an act of aggression that was unnecessary. There were alternatives but Shakeasswilly had to get results didn't he? Same with Porkochunko and the Kiev regime. They needed to show they were tough to their western masters so they attacked their own people, killing thousands of innocents.

What I saw in Spain this weekend tells me the EU is no different than Russia when it comes to authoritarian rule. In fact it may be worse. We shall see. Can you imagine the uproar if this had happened in a place like Smolensk? Or Kazan? There would be no end to the "ebil Russians" rhetoric.

People like MWR have what I call brain lock. They just can't see things any other way. Why can't Russia be allowed into NATO? The answer is usually along the lines of they're not like us or some off the wall nonsense. People like Ari are just knee jerk hypocrites with a racist streak to boot, clinging to the past and steeped in hatred.

Russia is no worse than any other country out there and in ways it is better. Seems to me America needs little more to go to war than a place to do it. Russia not only needs a place but a good reason.
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Old 10-02-2017, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Ankara, Turkey
401 posts, read 184,456 times
Reputation: 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
I know the situation of Crimea quite well, my family is from there, and I'm happy and so is my family that Crimea joined Russia. As far as NATO expansion it's a little bit more tricky. Poland, Baltic states, and Balkans joined NATO because they perceive Russia as a threat, it was Russia's fault for having bad relationships with these countries, and threatening them to not join makes them realize all the more that they need to. Plus Russia has nukes so realistically the US will never go to war with Russia, the worst they can do is blockade the country but Russia still has other over land trade partners such as China if that ever happened, which it wouldn't since that's an act of war. Soft power is much more powerful than hard power, I'd suggest Russia focus on building relationships with neighboring countries rather than threatening them.



Stalin made the same mistake with Turkey after the second world war. He asked for two Turkish provinces: Kars and Ardahan. By doing that, he practically pushed Turkey towards NATO.
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