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Old 10-23-2017, 09:33 AM
 
5,643 posts, read 2,276,521 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigeonhole View Post
But what is the West ? first and foremost the Western Media!
They have since long (since Marshall McLuhan at least) exceeded their part , which was originally to simply convey information to the "ignorant masses", and morphed into being the 5th Power, probably as powerful as all other 4 combined... hence the words (often sternly)pronounced by anchormen/women in Prime Time have de facto a religious , even zealot dimension : their word is what the average person has to believe without discussion, or else...
Well said.
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Old 10-23-2017, 09:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
For example, a gay can't support Trump, otherwise the entire gay community will ex-communicate him.


That's the freedom you have in present day USA.
It goes further than that. I remember the Battle Of Seattle. People trying to stop the decay of the quality of life in America and people trying to fight against and prevent what we are seeing today. They were crushed, we had military units on the streets of Seattle.

Tianamen square was a bad thing, that is true. Looking back from where China is today it was a necessary evil. The same can't be said for my country. We're far worse off than we were 20 years ago.
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Old 10-23-2017, 10:04 AM
 
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When it comes to "democracy" and "freedom" they're just words. Bullet words used to divert attention, used as a panacea to appease the patriotic and gullible.

Some of these people would be starving on the streets and if the person starving them were to tell them they were free and living in a democracy then they'd just keep right on starving.

The key to life is STABILITY. America is not great because of some special ideal or standard or whatever. It comes down to our location. We can't be invaded or destabilized but we can invade and destabilize others. Russia faces the challenges we do because they lost so much in the last century. Iraq is locked in perpetual warfare because of what America did to the country not because Saddam was a dictator. China has come so far not because of freedom and democracy but because the country is in one of its most stable periods it has ever seen. And thankfully they (like Russia) can stand up to the US.
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Old 10-23-2017, 10:12 AM
 
14,971 posts, read 13,551,426 times
Reputation: 6892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
Shakeasswilly is interesting to say the least. I guess he has found his reason for living once again. I have no respect for the individual so I have little good to say. What is playing out though seems to be yet another coup. Timoshenko and all the other dirt balls seem to be on his side too. I knew something was up from the time he crossed the border.

I guess the media here has other things to do until they can decide on a narrative. It's fraught with hazards, just think what will happen when and if it all falls apart.

What I see happening, is that Poroshenko and Co started implementing the kind of "reforms," that "association with E.U." has required. I.e. the energy bills went significantly up, the pensions were cut ( from what I remember,) and the health reforms were such, that they basically won't have free health care any longer ( all while they already have the outbreaks of epidemic diseases in Ukraine from what I've heard.) So with other words, the demands of the EU/World bank ( and whoever else is giving Ukraine loans) started being fulfilled. And this, in turn, started breeding the mass discontent in population, leading to mass protests ( the fate that Yanukovich was trying to avoid - remember?, when he realized what kind of reforms the EU was demanding in exchange for that very "association.")
And of course Saakashwili is getting his chance to proceed with his personal vendetta against Poroshenko, who booted him out ( on whatever ground) and stripped him of Ukrainian citizenship.
So I keep on watching this *drama* - it's going to be interesting how the *West* is going to present it ( if needed.)


Quote:
I think he is correct about the NG. Since 2014 the West has taken certain individuals from the Ukrainian security apparatus and sent them abroad for "special training" and sent specialists to Ukraine. The NG has been trained alright. They're paid better, equipped better and supported better than the Ukrainian police or the ukrainian army. The politicians of Iraq didn't want regular US army protecting them because those soldiers were subject to certain rules of conduct and had restrictions on them. Those politicians brought in "experts" that were not hindered by such things as the UCMJ and training that gave little freedom to act. That National Guard is there to protect the politicians from the people, make no mistake of that.
Are we talking about the likes of "Azov" and "Tornado?"
That nationalist scam?
But Petya Poroshenko and Co owe their rise to power to the nationalists. So of course Petya and Co HAD to pay their dues to them, since they had to rely on their protection. And then logically speaking Americans had to take those nationalists under their wing as well.
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Old 10-23-2017, 10:24 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,208,728 times
Reputation: 7564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
When it comes to "democracy" and "freedom" they're just words. Bullet words used to divert attention, used as a panacea to appease the patriotic and gullible.

Some of these people would be starving on the streets and if the person starving them were to tell them they were free and living in a democracy then they'd just keep right on starving.

The key to life is STABILITY. America is not great because of some special ideal or standard or whatever. It comes down to our location. We can't be invaded or destabilized but we can invade and destabilize others. Russia faces the challenges we do because they lost so much in the last century. Iraq is locked in perpetual warfare because of what America did to the country not because Saddam was a dictator. China has come so far not because of freedom and democracy but because the country is in one of its most stable periods it has ever seen. And thankfully they (like Russia) can stand up to the US.
Gosh I wish everyone were as intelligent as you are.
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Old 10-23-2017, 01:04 PM
 
5,643 posts, read 2,276,521 times
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Quote:
Are we talking about the likes of "Azov" and "Tornado?"
That nationalist scam?
But Petya Poroshenko and Co owe their rise to power to the nationalists. So of course Petya and Co HAD to pay their dues to them, since they had to rely on their protection. And then logically speaking Americans had to take those nationalists under their wing as well.
I'm not sure who is what or with whom yet.

The National Guard was reformed in March 2014 and is part of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Azov and Donbas battalions are part of it. Who else?
On the other hand Territtorial Defense Battalions were formed in almost every oblast and are under the authority of the Ministry of the Interior.
What's hard is the politicians themselves. They all have their own parties, their own groups of allies and alliances witth one another and the oligarchs who support their favorites and in some cases their own militias. There are also other wild cards we probably don't know about.
I don't know whos loyalties lie where. Shakeasswilly is being supported by several groups of oligarchs and politicians Yulia Timoshenko is one of those.
What smells so bad about this? Remember Somalia?
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Old 10-23-2017, 01:20 PM
 
5,643 posts, read 2,276,521 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli View Post
Gosh I wish everyone were as intelligent as you are.
Im no more intelligent than anyone else. I've been around the block a few times though and can look back decades for reference. Been there, done that. I'm also stuck in this goddamn office for the last month so I have time too.

Ari and the others strike me as younger and not having the resources they need to see the situation for what it is.

Its why old men like me can send the young men to die in fights old men like me start. They're dumb enough to believe what we say.
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Old 10-23-2017, 02:52 PM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,208,728 times
Reputation: 7564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
Im no more intelligent than anyone else. I've been around the block a few times though and can look back decades for reference. Been there, done that. I'm also stuck in this goddamn office for the last month so I have time too.

Ari and the others strike me as younger and not having the resources they need to see the situation for what it is.

Its why old men like me can send the young men to die in fights old men like me start. They're dumb enough to believe what we say.
Smart words again, the last paragraph lol. Ariet is a young guy I suppose which is why he is so idealistic about Western freedom and stuff. Ten years ago I was like him. Unfortunately I still have friends in their 30s who dream about all that stuff and have a very rosy view about the perfect US. They of course have never lived in western countries can't even read news in English.
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Old 10-23-2017, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Finland
24,268 posts, read 18,693,322 times
Reputation: 11103
I'm already too old for frontline service. Let the young guns fight, I'm in the rear with the gear.
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Old 10-23-2017, 03:40 PM
 
5,643 posts, read 2,276,521 times
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You'll never read about this in the western MSM. I wonder just what happened here.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/09/15/...icado-tortured

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