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Old 04-12-2018, 10:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
I agree, highly skilled individuals (India, Russia or whatever) often bypass Europe altogether and go to the US.

Because of language barriers, labor mobility in Europe is not that great for a professional (and many national job markets are still de-facto very protected, France for example)...for menial jobs less so.

By the way, Juncker confirmed that EU membership for Ukraine could still be decades away...
Thanks, that's my perception of things - that European labor market and American/Canadian labor market are different.
Ukrainians in particular would fair much better I think in American labor market than in European one.
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Thanks, that's my perception of things - that European labor market and American/Canadian labor market are different.
They are a extremely different.
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:40 PM
 
Location: Europe
3,724 posts, read 577,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
You mean local specialists demand higher salaries?
Why wouldn't they?
It's THEIR country, and they want to live decent lives in their own countries, instead of seeing their living standards plunging because of some Balts or Ukrainians.
Sure, this might deliver more money for the employers, but as I've said it brings the standards of living overall for the locals DOWN.
This is one of the reasons why Great Britain wants out of EU now.
With other words, the influx of cheap labor from Eastern European countries ( Ukraine including) create more problems for European living standards.
))))
To maintain the growth rate, Poland needs about 2-3 million more workers in the next 15 years. This is claimed by their authorities. And I think that these workers should not be Muslims.
Ukraine needed to follow the example of the Baltic countries in 1991 and completely separate from the Russian. 30 years was lost in vain.
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Europe
3,724 posts, read 577,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
But that does not mean that other people ( including those living in DPR) are not entitled to their own opinions, that differ from yours.
I know what people says in the DPR and not from TV but in personal conversations. They are getting worse every day. Some already spit on a two-headed chicken.
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
This is YOUR opinion, and you are entitled to it.
But that does not mean that other people ( including those living in DPR) are not entitled to their own opinions, that differ from yours.
I for example don't want to live in Putin's Russia (it's unacceptable for me,) but Maxim on another hand has his own opinion on this matter, which I respect as well.
See? There is no ONE UNANIMOUS WAY to look at things in current situation.
It all depends.
Why don't you want to live in Putin's Russia? Why is it unacceptable? It can't just be because you dislike the government, since you live in the US and dislike that one as well.
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Old 04-13-2018, 08:45 AM
 
195 posts, read 51,761 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
What skills exactly?
Those that had exceptional skills, didn't need any "European integration," they could just take off and and be hired by any European company, in the same manner as Russians find jobs in tech companies, without any "EU integration."
And if the skills are not "exceptional," why would European companies hire for those position Ukrainians instead of Germans or French nationals?



Indians don't immigrate to the "West" - they immigrate to US or Canada.
These are different labor markets, comparably to EU market.




Sure, since Europe obviously doesn't have enough of European doctors or lawyers, right?

Erasure! MW is talking about any "skills" and he is right.

A lot of times first generation of immigrants is not doing that great. Especially if we do not have any support or any relatives to lean on.

There is a lot for them to learn - it's a whole lot of a different system, values. culture, language, etc.

1) Coming here knowing the language is already a step up for many - like in a case of Indians (from Asia), Filipinos. It is easier for them to attend interviews, find better jobs, go to school or pass professional exams, etc. They communicate better, " learn the ropes" faster. They will do better. At first.
In case of Eastern Europeans - they were probably studying Russian instead of English in school as a second language (just guessing).
It will take a couple of years before they can do well /learn anything in a new country. And, meantime, they have to live somehow, pay bills, feed themselves or family.
I never ever looked down on those people who "clean toilets." Well. hell...My first job was pretty much close to that too. But, I swore I will never apply for a welfare (and never did). And, I came here with $100 in my pocket and with a ticket bought on borrowed money (which I repaid in three months).
It is an honest job. It is temporary for them - they know what they want, why they came here and what they will do with their hard earned money.
People like this do not do drugs or sit forever on welfare. It is a waste of time and money for them.
And, you will be surprised what kind of jobs they had in their countries... Respect them.
They are surviving honestly. They are above your "white collar" sneer.

And, if your parents, grandparents were first immigrants to this country - from Russia, Ukraine, Poland, etc. - ask them how it was for them and what jobs they did.

2) Skills. Milky Way is talking about any skills. If a person is educated (or even if he is a plumber or roofer working for $25/hr) - it is only a matter of time for him/her to advance up the ladder.

The "cleaning toilets" situation is temporary for them,probably first and a last job like this - because as soon as they learn the language they will take off.

P.S. If I loose everything right now - I will still survive on "cleaning toilets" jobs. And, will make it again!
But, I wonder what some of you forum "white collar" people / demagogues would do?
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Old 04-13-2018, 10:28 AM
 
3,153 posts, read 2,072,511 times
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A truly must hear for everybody that wants to understand the Ukraine situation and how it does dovetail in the EU framework....do yourself a favor and watch this really fantastic video where in one shot you can get historical, economic and geopolitical perspective.

If you do not know or understand these dynamics, you will be wandering in the dark at the mercy of whatever the media tell you.


"The new confrontation with Russia: Is the EU the continuation of Germany by other means?"



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CNeDtZmpjU
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Old 04-13-2018, 11:31 AM
 
15,042 posts, read 13,634,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
Why don't you want to live in Putin's Russia? Why is it unacceptable? It can't just be because you dislike the government, since you live in the US and dislike that one as well.
Because I never accepted the results of the nineties "reforms," and thus any government ( Putin's government in this case) that legitimized the thuggery and accepted the path that has been outlined for Russia from that point on ( the oligarchic state, crony capitalism and the rest) is not acceptable for me.

Ditto, since I discovered American role in all that, I am not a big fan of American government either.
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Old 04-13-2018, 12:20 PM
 
15,042 posts, read 13,634,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Straight Arrow View Post
Erasure! MW is talking about any "skills" and he is right.

A lot of times first generation of immigrants is not doing that great. Especially if we do not have any support or any relatives to lean on.

There is a lot for them to learn - it's a whole lot of a different system, values. culture, language, etc.

1) Coming here knowing the language is already a step up for many - like in a case of Indians (from Asia), Filipinos. It is easier for them to attend interviews, find better jobs, go to school or pass professional exams, etc. They communicate better, " learn the ropes" faster. They will do better. At first.
In case of Eastern Europeans - they were probably studying Russian instead of English in school as a second language (just guessing).
It will take a couple of years before they can do well /learn anything in a new country. And, meantime, they have to live somehow, pay bills, feed themselves or family.
MW is not European - that's the whole point; the labor markets in Europe and the US ARE DIFFERENT.
Everything you describe here ( the rest) is typical for the US market, and as I've already said that the way I know Ukrainians, they would fair here much better - a lot of them would perfectly fit into the middle level - be that technicians of any kind, mechanics, handy man - you name it, when it comes to men; women could get into accounting, nursing and so on.
Currently, the labor market in the US is probably not the greatest, but I can see a lot of niches still, where Ukrainians would fit nicely.

US is a big operational machine, with a continuous labor market, uninterrupted by state borders, or language barriers ( since English is used across the entire country,) so there are much more possibilities to find jobs where Ukrainians would be good at. But European labor market is a whole different story.

Quote:
I never ever looked down on those people who "clean toilets." Well. hell...My first job was pretty much close to that too. But, I swore I will never apply for a welfare (and never did). And, I came here with $100 in my pocket and with a ticket bought on borrowed money (which I repaid in three months).
It is an honest job. It is temporary for them - they know what they want, why they came here and what they will do with their hard earned money.
People like this do not do drugs or sit forever on welfare. It is a waste of time and money for them.
And, you will be surprised what kind of jobs they had in their countries... Respect them.
They are surviving honestly.
Quiet honestly, I have no idea what you are talking about.
Why would you "apply for welfare?" Do you have children?
Are you a single mother?
Because from what I know, those are the only people that are qualified for welfare in the US ( don't listen to all the dummies on the Political forum - they make things up.)
Well, single mothers and working families (WITH CHILDREN) that can't cover their bills because of the discrepancies between COL and their salaries.
The rest of the "welfare" people are on disability - i.e. they are recognized as unemployable by medical professionals, and approved by COURT to receive their disability checks.

Another thing - the year you've mentioned that you left Russia/Soviet Union(?) was still back in time when the borders were closed and people were not allowed to leave. So yet again - I am not sure what "borrowed $100" are you talking about, and what "ticket." ( Unless you are talking specifically about Jewish immigration - just a guess.)


Quote:
They are above your "white collar" sneer.

And, if your parents, grandparents were first immigrants to this country - from Russia, Ukraine, Poland, etc. - ask them how it was for them and what jobs they did.
My parents would never immigrate to the US - they look down on America as "uncultured country" and adore Europe ( where they wouldn't immigrate either)))
I guess I inherited my "white collar sneer" from them, all while cleaning stables and working in McDonalds.
Cleaning stables had it perks though - I loved horseback riding, however places like McDonalds gave me a great insight into what exactly I detest in American corporate machine.
That is not to say I never had "white color jobs" - of course I did, I just carefully avoided jobs in the corporate settings.

Last edited by erasure; 04-13-2018 at 01:29 PM..
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Old 04-13-2018, 12:39 PM
 
15,042 posts, read 13,634,316 times
Reputation: 6921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alec Solano View Post
))))
To maintain the growth rate, Poland needs about 2-3 million more workers in the next 15 years. This is claimed by their authorities. And I think that these workers should not be Muslims.
Ukraine needed to follow the example of the Baltic countries in 1991 and completely separate from the Russian. 30 years was lost in vain.
Would you care to ask Polish authorities, why Poland has shortage of people?
How are the economic conditions in the country? How is the birth rate? ( Hint - under atrocious Soviet regime, the population was growing.)
How is the migration out of the country? Is it low? Is it high?
Ask "Polish authorities" all these questions, and you might be surprised to learn, why Poland is all of a sudden open for influx of Ukrainians.
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