U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Europe
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 04-08-2014, 12:07 PM
 
1,039 posts, read 907,330 times
Reputation: 616

Advertisements

They aren't bandits, they are the members of the local defence and they don't want to live in the fascist country. That is why they demand independence.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-08-2014, 12:23 PM
 
Location: British Columbia, Canada
43 posts, read 53,852 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atai J. View Post
They aren't bandits, they are the members of the local defence and they don't want to live in the fascist country. That is why they demand independence.
Ukraine is not a fascist country, in fact, the weak, coalitionist provisional government is so far from the centre-right dictatorship of Russia (which is closer to fascism and far more authoritarian) it's not even funny. The Right Sektor bandits which the weak provisional government can't disarm (as you can see they're also having a problem with the Russian bandits) are a Russian scapegoat for further illegal annexation, nothing more. They have no chance of winning an election. Ukraine has a huge east-west divide but calling the provisional government fascist is scapegoating at best and idiotic at worst.

Ukraine wants to finally be free.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2014, 01:14 PM
 
15,445 posts, read 13,428,866 times
Reputation: 20952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain N' Hail View Post
I don't know how he got elected to this day, when I saw they'd elected him in the Ukraine my first though was "isn't that guy a Russian pawn?"
He got elected because he was better than the idiots from the Orange revolution. He is far from a saint, but those like Tymonshenko are just as bad, if not worse; they just have not had the opportunity yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain N' Hail View Post
Ukraine is not a failed state any more than the rump dictatorship of the Soviet Union is.
The USSR could at least proclaim to have the second largest economy in the world; Ukraine has been through two revolts, is bankrupt unless someone bails them out, and basically has been sucking off others to keep afloat since 1991. It is a failed state, they have not been able to be on their own since independence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain N' Hail View Post
The most amusing part of this is Russia expecting Kyiv to toe the Moscow line after they illegally annexed part of its territory...not happening. It's pretty clear the transitional government wants to move west. I don't blame them for not wanting Russian as a second official language either and hope they don't have to bend. Hopefully they also outright leave the CIS.
I agree, not happening; I think what many people want, and do not want, is for Ukraine to be split up, but west Ukraine will never survive without the industrial east, and the West does not care much to take just part of the prize.

In regards to the language; you do realize many people in Ukraine, including ethnic Ukrainians, do not speak Ukrainian, or have a low proficiency in it? And you wonder how Yanukovich got elected again? It is because of stuff like this, a core group around Kiev thinking the entire country should be like them, and if not, should be ostracized. Despite what people want to believe, the proficiency of Ukrainian is low among many people, especially in professional settings. While you can find someone who speaks it, they many times cannot write it, nor are proficient past conversational level. Also, again, many families are a mix, so trying to create some ethnic division is basically the same as trying to divide families, which many people do not react well to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain N' Hail View Post
Also, I'm not getting how the revolution is wrong because it was illegal yet the annexation of Crimea was not wrong... These mythical far-right forces in Kyiv don't really exist, Right Sektor has very little support and is hardly pro-genocide of other Slavic groups.
I do not think many say the annexation was legal, I sure did not, I stated many posts ago I think it was a wrong move by Russia. I thought Russia should have extended the same deal to the new gov as the old gov.

The ultra-nationalists forces do exist, and if not formally, than the ideology does. If the capital was located more centrally, these issues would not actually happen, but the capital happens to be located in/near the ultra-nationalist strong hold, thus easy to rally everyone up and protest for months on end, while the rest of Ukraine is at work and/or does not have the means to travel so far for such a long time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2014, 01:21 PM
 
15,445 posts, read 13,428,866 times
Reputation: 20952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain N' Hail View Post
Ukraine is not a fascist country, in fact, the weak, coalitionist provisional government is so far from the centre-right dictatorship of Russia (which is closer to fascism and far more authoritarian) it's not even funny. The Right Sektor bandits which the weak provisional government can't disarm (as you can see they're also having a problem with the Russian bandits) are a Russian scapegoat for further illegal annexation, nothing more. They have no chance of winning an election. Ukraine has a huge east-west divide but calling the provisional government fascist is scapegoating at best and idiotic at worst.

Ukraine wants to finally be free.
The path to freedom starts with being able to be on your own; merely going from leaching off of Russia to leaching of the West is not being free. Being obligated to strict terms under IMF loans is not being free. Having an economy limping along for the next two decades while obtaining loan after loan is not being free.

If Ukraine thinks things are bad now, just wait until those IMF conditions kick in, on top of all the other issues Ukraine has.

But you know who will not be impacted by all of this? And who will actually make money from all of this and live well? The current oligarchs, and those trying to get into power to become an oligarch. These people competing for power just want to get their hands in the cookie pot.

Ukraine has been free since 1991. Their act of freedom, fairly electing a president, was overthrown. How can you say they want to be free, when they revolted against a fairly elected president? Why not vote him out in 2015? Why not take the constitutional way to get him out? How is this being free when an unelected government is enacting legislation that is going to impact Ukraine for decades?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2014, 01:29 PM
 
15,445 posts, read 13,428,866 times
Reputation: 20952
Quote:
Originally Posted by viribusunitis View Post
I suggest to read Locke's work on the social contract theory and the right/duty of revolution.
Done so many times; while Locke states it is a right to revolution, which I agree, the vote is right in which Ukraine has to oust the current leadership. A small group obviously does not believe in this right and wanted it their way, without any vote (this is why they are pushing legislation through before the election, and forbidding many people from being able to run for office).

So if we want to sue Locke, well then Crimea was also in the right just as much as the revolt was; it is either one or the other, cannot have it both ways. Cannot call the revolt legal under the natural rights of revolution (though the right to vote exists and the president was voted in by a fair election), but not apply natural rights of revolution to Crimea, who in fact voted their path, which despite how corrupt the vote was or not, was still more democratic than anything the new Ukrainian gov has done, and less violent.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2014, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Hong Kong / Vienna
4,557 posts, read 5,102,259 times
Reputation: 3909
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
So if we want to sue Locke, well then Crimea was also in the right just as much as the revolt was; it is either one or the other, cannot have it both ways. Cannot call the revolt legal under the natural rights of revolution (though the right to vote exists and the president was voted in by a fair election), but not apply natural rights of revolution to Crimea, who in fact voted their path, which despite how corrupt the vote was or not, was still more democratic than anything the new Ukrainian gov has done, and less violent.
Well, I disagree with you. I pointed out why a couple of pages ago. Russian military, election fraud, no international observers. But to be honest, it doesn't matter anymore. Crimea is part of Russia now and it's pretty obvious that that's not gonna change anytime soon. That doesn't mean, though, that one can't criticize how Russia pulled off that move. You don't seem to care, I do.

Personally, I'm pretty indifferent about the government in Kiev. If it turns out that the reelections in May are as fishy as the ones in Crimea, I'm happy to criticize them as well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2014, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Finland
24,268 posts, read 18,693,322 times
Reputation: 11103
Quote:
Originally Posted by viribusunitis View Post
Personally, I'm pretty indifferent about the government in Kiev. If it turns out that the reelections in May are as fishy as the ones in Crimea, I'm happy to criticize them as well.
Me too.

But I will still feel sorry for the Maidanists.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2014, 02:34 PM
 
15,445 posts, read 13,428,866 times
Reputation: 20952
Quote:
Originally Posted by viribusunitis View Post
Well, I disagree with you. I pointed out why a couple of pages ago. Russian military, election fraud, no international observers. But to be honest, it doesn't matter anymore. Crimea is part of Russia now and it's pretty obvious that that's not gonna change anytime soon. That doesn't mean, though, that one can't criticize how Russia pulled off that move. You don't seem to care, I do.

Personally, I'm pretty indifferent about the government in Kiev. If it turns out that the reelections in May are as fishy as the ones in Crimea, I'm happy to criticize them as well.
I was just addressing the issue through Locke; I stated before that I disagree with the Crimea issue. But I think everyone has made a larger deal out of it than it should be, because I think even Ukraine knows that Crimea was Ukraine in name only. Not that it makes it right what happened, but given that Ukraine did not even fire a shot in defense of Crimea shows Crimea that Ukraine was just not that into the place to begin with.

I am curious about the end game here, what is it going to be regarding this situation. Is everyone actually going to formally accept the annexation of Crimea? The sanctions, possible future sanctions, and rhetoric, is not something that can be kept up for an extended period of time, something will have to give.

I do care, I have personal interest in the area, as well as just general interest. I am not indifferent about the gov in Kiev, I do not at all like how this situation developed; I think they should have waited for the 2015 elections, but it is becoming obvious why they did not want to wait, and has nothing to do with "freedom".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2014, 02:37 PM
 
4,456 posts, read 3,691,650 times
Reputation: 3104
Quote:
I guess the West is in solidarity with whatever group will give the West what it wants, not what is best for Ukraine.
I'd sugegst that what's best for Ukraine is to have all the the 'pro-Russians' go on vacation to Yalta and relax. Take a tour of the Crimea. New ownership, new bargains, such new fun! Ukraine won't get any sleep now with Mr. Putin playing 'destab' football in his 'backyard'. Any fool can see how this is going. He has no time for the status quo. It's gone forever in Russian-Ukrainian relations. I hope Ukraine can hold its own and that the EU and the West refuses to play Putin's games.
in the country. A difficult road is ahead.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2014, 03:10 PM
 
Location: NYC
2,802 posts, read 3,027,151 times
Reputation: 4789
Looking at this, Americans should appreciate how lucky they were historically to be geographically too distant for the British Empire to effectively control. These days, even if you manage to overthrow the corrupt government with the best of intentions toward improving the country, your ruthless powerful neighbor may make that choice untenable.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > World Forums > Europe
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top