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Old 05-08-2014, 11:21 AM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
6,810 posts, read 9,374,338 times
Reputation: 6017

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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Of course it's still needed because the conflicts in the world are far from over. That's why as much as NATO, Russian army is needed, Chinese military is needed and so is Iranian Army.


The way Russia has been approached/treated by the West in post -Soviet times, it was obvious that Russia didn't belong in NATO.



Europe/US and Russia finally had peace not because of creation of NATO as you might think, but because of the presence on nuclear weapons on both sides.



Because at that point in time the US "secured" them.
Well that's the question of the day is it not? Did the Cold War between the Soviet Union and the West stay cold and not go hot because of nuclear weapons? Interesting question.

But I was talking to Makism about NATO relations within European NATO not between NATO and the Soviet Union. Keep in mind most NATO members do not have nuclear weapons except for the US, Britain and France. But you do not see Germany, Italy, Spain, Canada, Poland, Turkey etc. trying to get nukes. You do not see Poland and France worrying about the growth of the German Army or Italy and Spain in a naval race with each other. That's part of the value of a collective security alliance like NATO.
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Old 05-08-2014, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Russia
4,082 posts, read 2,152,896 times
Reputation: 1206
Quote:
Originally Posted by pch1013 View Post
But many Russians are insisting that it isn't, and never was.

Why the inconsistency?
Ask any Russian who is the mother of Russian cities. He will say: "Kiev".
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Old 05-08-2014, 11:43 AM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
6,810 posts, read 9,374,338 times
Reputation: 6017
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
Because Ukraine is more than a thousand years. As Russia and Belarus. Previously we were a united country, but over time Russia and Ukraine became independent states. Therefore, Ukraine was a member of the UN since inception.

And we not say, that the Ukraine isn't really a country. We say that modern Ukraine was formed with the participation of Russia. Western Ukrainian lands were conquered by the Russian Empire, the eastern lands were transferred from Russia to Ukraine. By the way, Ukrainians and Belarusian took an active part in the life of the Russian Empire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
Ask any Russian who is the mother of Russian cities. He will say: "Kiev".
My understanding is that Russia, Ukraine and Belarus are all very close to each other culturally. So I think what you saying makes more sense emotionally then all this endless talk about fascists. How do you divide up people who are so close to each in language, history and culture? How do you do it fairly? Very difficult to answer.
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Old 05-08-2014, 11:54 AM
 
17 posts, read 18,212 times
Reputation: 23
For me Putin is a hero. If before ~10 years somebody told me Russia is going to grow economically so much, I would not believe him. Well, it happened, somehow Putin is making it happen. Nowadays in Spain to know Russian language is very appreciated when searching for job in the tourism. Could you had imagined that before a decade? I believe Putin will fix Ukraine too. He is amazing enough to do it. Not talking about military superiority, even talking only economically, Russia advanced much.

I'm not living in Russia. It is all I perceive from Russian television and known people living there. I think after ten years many Europeans could learn Russian language to can find job in Russia. I think it is possible. I believe somehow Putin could make it. Vanga said it, I don't believe her blindly, but it could happen, why actually not...

I think if someone is clever enough to fix Ukraine(at least part of it), that is Putin.

Let imagine for a moment Ukraine having Putin as president. I don't think Ukrainian people would starve in that case.

I am not into politics. Take my opinion as from someone that is not into politics. I have right to vote so my opinion shouldn't equal to zero neither, it is just not professional. If I was professional politic I would not chat here, I would be busy eating human flesh, drinking virgin blood in some fancy restaurant....just kidding/2
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:18 PM
 
12,654 posts, read 12,071,712 times
Reputation: 17287
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikiwww View Post
For me Putin is a hero. If before ~10 years somebody told me Russia is going to grow economically so much, I would not believe him. Well, it happened, somehow Putin is making it happen. Nowadays in Spain to know Russian language is very appreciated when searching for job in the tourism. Could you had imagined that before a decade? I believe Putin will fix Ukraine too. He is amazing enough to do it. Not talking about military superiority, even talking only economically, Russia advanced much.

I'm not living in Russia. It is all I perceive from Russian television and known people living there. I think after ten years many Europeans could learn Russian language to can find job in Russia. I think it is possible. I believe somehow Putin could make it. Vanga said it, I don't believe her blindly, but it could happen, why actually not...

I think if someone is clever enough to fix Ukraine(at least part of it), that is Putin.

Let imagine for a moment Ukraine having Putin as president. I don't think Ukrainian people would starve in that case.

I am not into politics. Take my opinion as from someone that is not into politics. I have right to vote so my opinion shouldn't equal to zero neither, it is just not professional. If I was professional politic I would not chat here, I would be busy eating human flesh, drinking virgin blood in some fancy restaurant....just kidding/2
Putin did come in at the right time; Yelstin as historic as he was (and brave during the whole Soviet fall), he was way past his abilities when it came to managing post-Soviet Russia. Putin came in and corrected many issues, but did not correct a few critical issues regarding the internal political environment; in which there is a constant fear (and this fear is real to some extent) of mass foreign influence in internal politics, thus there is a culture of "cracking down" on political entities, as they are generally seen as arms of foreign influence.

Putin though has now become a part of a different problem, and My opinion he has stalled Russia's progression in many areas. One critical area is its projection of global power; Russia has the tools and ability to project soft power globally, and yet Russia is surprisingly absent in doing so, even the Soviets were better at this. When it comes to a natural disaster somewhere like the Philippines, Russia should had been right there next to everyone else in full force (they sent like 100 people or something).

Russia has also developed this "anti-west" mentality, in which no matter how great the idea, if it is from the West, it is dismissed. This is similar to how many Americans view anything from Europe, and how US political parties oppose each other just for the sake of opposing because it is the other party.

Putin came in at a great time, but has long stayed pass his usefulness. As far as his influence in Ukraine, I think Russia's influence has always been over-estimated. If Russia's influence has been so great, there would not be the issues there are now.
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:25 PM
 
13,823 posts, read 12,612,215 times
Reputation: 6460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
Because Ukraine is more than a thousand years. As Russia and Belarus. Previously we were a united country, but over time Russia and Ukraine became independent states. .
What exactly are you talking about? When did they become "independent states?"
When Ukraine in the middle ages went its own way, it has been swallowed by Poland, and that's when ( being culturally orthodox) they've asked for help for Moscow and they were included in Russia after the treaty of Pereyaslav.

Treaty of Pereyaslav - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1952 ( whatever they were celebrating the 300 year anniversary of Russia-Ukraine unification ( that's when Khrushev gifted Crimea to Ukraine - remember?)
So Ukraine was NOT an independent state from Russia for the last 300 years at that point, therefore why was it represented in the UN as a separate state back then, while being part of the USSR is a good question.
My guess would be that it has got something to do with the WWII, but I can't do the search at this point,( because as I've mentioned I don't have my computer with Cyrillic keyboard and all at the moment, unfortunately. )
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:29 PM
 
1,039 posts, read 868,512 times
Reputation: 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by pch1013 View Post
But many Russians are insisting that it isn't, and never was.

Why the inconsistency?
"Many Russians"? Why do you think so or where do you read this? As I know people of Russia love ukrainian people (except RS and banderovtsy)and wants Ukraine free of fascism.
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Old 05-08-2014, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Russia
4,082 posts, read 2,152,896 times
Reputation: 1206
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
What exactly are you talking about? When did they become "independent states?"
When Ukraine in the middle ages went its own way, it has been swallowed by Poland, and that's when ( being culturally orthodox) they've asked for help for Moscow and they were included in Russia after the treaty of Pereyaslav.

Treaty of Pereyaslav - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1952 ( whatever they were celebrating the 300 year anniversary of Russia-Ukraine unification ( that's when Khrushev gifted Crimea to Ukraine - remember?)
I mean the last 20 years.
But when and why Malorossiya (Little Russia) has become Ukraine and was estranged from to Russia, I can not answer now. Perhaps this was due to the impact of the accession of western lands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Russia

Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
So Ukraine was NOT an independent state from Russia for the last 300 years at that point, therefore why was it represented in the UN as a separate state back then, while being part of the USSR is a good question.
My guess would be that it has got something to do with the WWII, but I can't do the search at this point,( because as I've mentioned I don't have my computer with Cyrillic keyboard and all at the moment, unfortunately. )
If I'm not mistaken, the inclusion of Ukraine and Belarus in the UN Security Council insisted Stalin. This was done in order to increase the number of votes in contentious situations. To make one vote USSR did not confronted several voices allies. Political move. Official position: Ukrainian SSR and Byelorussian SSR maximum suffered of war, so thay have the right to enter the Security Council.

Last edited by Maksim_Frolov; 05-08-2014 at 01:04 PM..
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Old 05-08-2014, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Estonia
1,707 posts, read 1,259,002 times
Reputation: 2293
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikiwww View Post
For me Putin is a hero. If before ~10 years somebody told me Russia is going to grow economically so much, I would not believe him. Well, it happened, somehow Putin is making it happen. Nowadays in Spain to know Russian language is very appreciated when searching for job in the tourism. Could you had imagined that before a decade? I believe Putin will fix Ukraine too. He is amazing enough to do it. Not talking about military superiority, even talking only economically, Russia advanced much.

I'm not living in Russia. It is all I perceive from Russian television and known people living there. I think after ten years many Europeans could learn Russian language to can find job in Russia. I think it is possible. I believe somehow Putin could make it. Vanga said it, I don't believe her blindly, but it could happen, why actually not...

I think if someone is clever enough to fix Ukraine(at least part of it), that is Putin.

Let imagine for a moment Ukraine having Putin as president. I don't think Ukrainian people would starve in that case.

I am not into politics. Take my opinion as from someone that is not into politics. I have right to vote so my opinion shouldn't equal to zero neither, it is just not professional. If I was professional politic I would not chat here, I would be busy eating human flesh, drinking virgin blood in some fancy restaurant....just kidding/2
And how does this mindset differ from the German one in the 30's? In the begging you might feel euphoria and what not but in the end you end up betrayed and in a recession because I think this is exactly going to happen, since Russia has pretty much isolated itself from the international community.
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Old 05-08-2014, 01:06 PM
 
Location: On a Long Island in NY
7,624 posts, read 8,117,782 times
Reputation: 6949
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
What exactly are you talking about? When did they become "independent states?"
When Ukraine in the middle ages went its own way, it has been swallowed by Poland, and that's when ( being culturally orthodox) they've asked for help for Moscow and they were included in Russia after the treaty of Pereyaslav.

Treaty of Pereyaslav - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1952 ( whatever they were celebrating the 300 year anniversary of Russia-Ukraine unification ( that's when Khrushev gifted Crimea to Ukraine - remember?)
So Ukraine was NOT an independent state from Russia for the last 300 years at that point, therefore why was it represented in the UN as a separate state back then, while being part of the USSR is a good question.
My guess would be that it has got something to do with the WWII, but I can't do the search at this point,( because as I've mentioned I don't have my computer with Cyrillic keyboard and all at the moment, unfortunately. )
I read somewhere in the discussions about forming the UN that Stalin wanted all 16 Soviet Socialist Republics represented but somewhere along the negotiation process only the Ukrainian SSR and the USSR proper were included. Why the Ukrainian SSR and not the Georgian SSR or the Uzbek SSR? I have no idea.
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