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Old 05-27-2014, 03:31 AM
 
Location: Hong Kong / Vienna
4,557 posts, read 5,107,821 times
Reputation: 3909

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramzes55 View Post
Read an interview with the German 90 year old man, who had served in the SS "HITLERJUGEND."
He asked what is happening in Ukraine and when he was told he thought and said:

- We have done a lot of bad. But we never bombed their own cities.
That's probably because those children of the 12th Division were busy with getting shot in France instead of fighting a civil war... Plus they were mech. infantry without planes...
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Old 05-27-2014, 04:00 AM
 
235 posts, read 165,228 times
Reputation: 180
Quote:
Originally Posted by viribusunitis View Post
That's probably because those children of the 12th Division were busy with getting shot in France instead of fighting a civil war... Plus they were mech. infantry without planes...
(I apologize for my English.) He was referring to all Germans (Nazis). The Nazis did not bomb their cities with their inhabitants.

Ukrainian military bombing their own city for 3 months.
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Old 05-27-2014, 04:08 AM
 
Location: Hong Kong / Vienna
4,557 posts, read 5,107,821 times
Reputation: 3909
WW2 was not a civil war. Anyways, you should look up the Nero Decree and stop comparing the Ukrainian government with Nazi Germany. You are just making a fool out of yourself.
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Old 05-27-2014, 09:10 AM
 
4,456 posts, read 3,695,026 times
Reputation: 3104
Quote:
That is why Ukraine is forced such a mass anti-Russian hysteria.
You know may I say the separatists need to calm down a bit? Interrupting the voters in Donetsk really takes the cake. Those gun-toting fellows apparently don't get it. They are unfortunately making Donetsk into a 'Tombstone' territory.

And re" Fed Biz Opps? It was done under Ukrainian jurisdiction. Their right, no? It wasn't done with Rossiya. Hey who's country is it anyway?
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Old 05-27-2014, 09:50 AM
 
1,746 posts, read 4,626,191 times
Reputation: 1166
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitlock View Post
I don't know who's firing those AK 47's anymore. Ethnic Russians or Ukrainians.
Probably Chechens operating in the Eastern Ukraine and "invited" by Putin.
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Old 05-27-2014, 02:58 PM
 
15,464 posts, read 13,457,619 times
Reputation: 21020
Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
You know may I say the separatists need to calm down a bit? Interrupting the voters in Donetsk really takes the cake. Those gun-toting fellows apparently don't get it. They are unfortunately making Donetsk into a 'Tombstone' territory.

And re" Fed Biz Opps? It was done under Ukrainian jurisdiction. Their right, no? It wasn't done with Rossiya. Hey who's country is it anyway?
Well, the Ukrainian gov did try to interrupt the voting in the referendum also. (not saying what the separists are doing is right either).

And I repeat again; why should anyone in the area trust the vote? They voted for Yanukovich, and he got ousted; what makes them think anyone they vote for is not going to get the same treatment?

The Orange revolt toppled Yanukovic (rightly so as it was an unfair election), but Ukraine became even worse under the leaders of the Orange revolt. Yanukovich won a fair election, then gets ousted by a group who basically could not field a candidate that could win.

The current winner, Petro, come on now, a billionaire oligarch wins? Does anyone really take this seriously? Yes, he is a bit different than other oligarchs, mainly in how he originally got his money, but still, seems "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". (as a disclosure, I do purchase and enjoy Roshen products).

But the current way of handling the separatists is just a reflection of how Ukraine itself has handled every situation; the lack of any extension of an olive branch, and a "its all mine" approach; this has created the constant "we live in the same territory, but we do not live together" issues that are plaguing Ukraine.

It seems no one wants to address this, they rather just put a lid on the boiling pot in hopes it will stay shut. It seems many in charge of Ukraine right now simply has this "my way or f^%k you" attitude regarding everyone in Ukraine. The Ukrainian gov has its limits even of authority because of this; it cannot even field a successful offensive right now, yet a bunch of "tough talking" is coming out instead of the basics of diplomacy. The mere fact the Ukrainian gov refers to them as "terrorists" and "they do not talk to terrorists" shows just how out of touch with reality they are when it comes to the people of Ukraine.
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Old 05-27-2014, 03:09 PM
 
15,464 posts, read 13,457,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viribusunitis View Post
That would be the biggest mistake ever. One can only hope that Poroshenko, who had ties to the Party of Regions, is able to get both sides on the same table again. It's a step forward that they got rid of Turchynov...
I think the best way to do is for both sides to come to the table and prepare to compromise. Kiev needs to understand that its population is not satisfied with events in Kiev; this is not about "Russian influence", Russia would never have any influence is the population itself did not welcome some form of it. Only total neglect by Kiev has made this happen, a satisfied population would not wane so easily under the influence of anyone.

It is no debate that there is a hostile feeling, and this extends beyond ethnic lines, because this feeling is economic based. People tend to take drastic actions when their economic livelihood is at stake, and when leaders they elected are ousted from power by the opposing party.

The separatists will not be able to maintain their independence, I do not think they have the means to, and I think the population there while may or may not be supportive, has a lot of apathy to the whole thing. (most revolts are created and won/lost by the minority though). But without some sort of outside assistance, they will not be able to hold on, the West will spend billions to supply Ukraine enough to take back the territories, the separatists need the equivalent to maintain.
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Old 05-27-2014, 03:13 PM
 
15,464 posts, read 13,457,619 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by movingwiththewind View Post
Probably Chechens operating in the Eastern Ukraine and "invited" by Putin.
Goodness, you can just browse the Internet and see who all it is, it is not like it is some state secret or something. One thing great about that part of the world, they love their cell phone videos.

A whole other issue is the little gang business groups using the situation to take out some of their enemies, under the guise of this conflict.
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Old 05-27-2014, 07:05 PM
 
14,996 posts, read 13,572,953 times
Reputation: 6896
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
I think the best way to do is for both sides to come to the table and prepare to compromise. Kiev needs to understand that its population is not satisfied with events in Kiev; this is not about "Russian influence", Russia would never have any influence is the population itself did not welcome some form of it. Only total neglect by Kiev has made this happen, a satisfied population would not wane so easily under the influence of anyone.
Boxus, how do you see this compromise? How is it possible?
The Eastern regions economy is directly dependent on Russia, yet their industries have been already promised to American/European corporations. Will America/EU be ready to compromise then?
I mean the first part of scenario already went according to American directives; didn't Nuland mention in her infamous conversation with Payette that she'd like to see Poroshenko as president, Yatzenuk as prime-minister ( or whoever he is) and Klichko as a mayor of Kiev? Isn't it what precisely took place recently?
This is the reason I believe that Poroshenko can't really compromise; with IMF loans at stake he is not a free man, so he has to report to his new masters that he is ready to deliver to them what they demand - i.e. the industries of the East. That's why I expect more deaths in the name of $$$$ and American corporations in Eastern Ukraine.
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Old 05-27-2014, 07:30 PM
 
15,464 posts, read 13,457,619 times
Reputation: 21020
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Boxus, how do you see this compromise? How is it possible?
The Eastern regions economy is directly dependent on Russia, yet their industries have been already promised to American/European corporations. Will America/EU be ready to compromise then?
I mean the first part of scenario already went according to American directives; didn't Nuland mention in her infamous conversation with Payette that she'd like to see Poroshenko as president, Yatzenuk as prime-minister ( or whoever he is) and Klichko as a mayor of Kiev? Isn't it what precisely took place recently?
This is the reason I believe that Poroshenko can't really compromise; with IMF loans at stake he is not a free man, so he has to report to his new masters that he is ready to deliver to them what they demand - i.e. the industries of the East. That's why I expect more deaths in the name of $$$$ and American corporations in Eastern Ukraine.
It is not possible. As many including myself pointed out way earlier in this thread, the West needs to dismantle eastern Ukraine's economy. West Ukraine in order to hold and maintain power needs to also dismantle eastern Ukraine's economy; the issue with west Ukraine doing this is it is a dangerous gamble to dismantle the one area making money for the country. However, the rich in Ukraine are playing this power game, while the poor are going to get the bad end of the stick no matter what, that is why the Kiev leaders had to invoke nationalism, as economics would not have passed the logic test.

The first think the coup led gov did was invoke nationalistic fever throughout Ukraine, this was done to hide the obvious economic disaster they were making. Anyone opposing the new regime is automatically called "Russian" and "Russian influenced", because this automatically demonizes anyone that opposes the new gov in any way, therefore there can be no challenge on the economics of what the new gov is doing.

Those wanting to break away from Ukraine, yea, no kidding they want to. They know the new gov is about to dismantle their economic livelihood, and they have been pretty much the target of West Ukraine for 23 years now in the struggle for leading Ukraine. West Ukraine cannot field a candidate that will win, they never have, east Ukraine will not participate in their absurd economic schemes.
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