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Old 06-17-2014, 08:17 AM
 
5,823 posts, read 10,121,497 times
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@ travric : although I share your opinion that in front of such a tragedy one can only cry, not laugh, however you should acknowledge if you are intellectually honest that the positions of the ones and the others are so polarized now that it seems impossible to find (at least ) a sshort-term common ground (around the negotiating table). As long as one of the parties (the Ukrainian government) refuses to recognize the very existence of another one (the Donetsk separatists), only the guns will be allowed to "talk" , it's a terrible setback for our civilization. Things are happening right now in Europe which one would think can happen only in other, less enlighened, continents.
You know, travric, I don't want to speak of myself in these circusmtances, however you should know that I had an education (and a higher aducation since I have a MA in History) based on the western democratic principles of open-mindedness, curiosity, tolerance, political engagement seen as a positive value, and distrust towards any form of militarism. And I have strictly NO personal interest in the present dispute. So you should ask yourself why me (and many many people like me in the West, have you heard of Noam Chomsky?) are taking side for Russia and the Donetsk separatists against tha All-Powerful West. Why? I'm 59 years old, not a kid anymore (!), and nobody in my close entourage is Russian or a friend of Mr Putin or indeed so interested in that conflict (most have no opinion). So I'm under strictly no outside influence; So logically I should be on the side of NATO , Washington and Brussels as our media keep on saying they are "the Good" and the others "the Bad". And nevertheless I didn't make that choice, quite the opposite. Think hard. Why ? why on earth ?
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Old 06-17-2014, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Russia
4,220 posts, read 2,344,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
...and terrorist actions in Crimea...
Nobody made ​​in Crimea terrorist actions. They are only in your heads. There's the holiday season.
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Old 06-17-2014, 08:55 AM
 
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Regarding the statement (as in not addressing you, but the statement);

Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
'We strongly condemn the terrorist attack against the Ukrainian plane in Luhansk that killed 49 people. The fact the segments of the state border between Russia and Ukraine are controlled y armed terrorist groups who can cross the border, unimpedely smuggling alos Russian-made weaponry and even tanks, is unjustifiable and inconsistent with the promised de-escalation policy. Having crossed the uncontrolled state border into Ukraine's territory, the terrorist groups armed with anti-aircraft and anti-tank weaponry are using violence unrestrictedly, attacking the Ukrainian military forces and civilians, oftehn using the human shield-shotting from residential, areas, apratment buildings and children's playgrounds'.
The plane was not a terror attack in even the most liberal sense of the definition. It was a military plane carrying military troops, and landing in a conflict zone.

The separatists have weapons from the Ukrainian military depots that they took control of. Ukraine has military bases in the east, those bases have weapons on them. The separatists were former soldiers once, so they have training in these things.

And notice no condemning of Ukraine attacking civilian targets? No condemnation of the random shelling and bombing of civilian targets? The random shooting of civilians during the referendum?

Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
We regret that such terrorist attacks cause not only legitimate indignation of the Ukrainian people, but also unacceptable protest forms, such as the attack on the Embassy of the Russian Federation in Kyiv. We condemn these illegal actions directed against the immunity of the diplomatic mission and urge the government of Ukraine to take all measures to ensure the security of diplomatic representations'.
The only reason they said anything about the embassy is because if they failed to do so, that would put their own embassies at risk around the world. The US was quick to jump on this also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
We call on Russia to ensure proper control of the Ukrainian state border to prevent the Russian-made weaponry and armed Russian citizens from entering the territory of eastern Ukraine, thus helping to stop the ongoing terrorist attacks in this part of the territory of Ukraine'.
The US with over 150k troops in Iraq could not control the Syrian-Iraq border. The West and Kiev complained when there were Russian troops on the border; how in the heck does anyone think Russia is to control the border? The only way to do so would be to station tens of thousands of troops, but if Russia does that, the West will be crying about it.

And please, I wish they quit calling things "terror attacks", the only terror attacks happening are from Kiev. Kiev has killed how many civilians compared to the separatists? Notice everything in Crimea is all nice and quiet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
We urge the Government of Russia to condemn the continued human rights violations and terrorist actions in Crimea and eastern Ukraine and to immediately start to implement international agreements, as well as the proposals presented
by the Contact Group that includes representatives in Ukraine, the Russian Federation and the OSCE inorder to bring about peace in the region and to ensure the sovereignity and territorial integrity of Ukraine'.
The only human rights violations occurring are from Kiev and their indiscriminate firing upon civilian areas. If not for Kiev, there would not have been one single death in this conflict. Serbia showed there is no inherit right to territorial integrity as the West dismantled their territory for them. Everyone is expecting east Ukraine to all of a sudden embrace with open arms Kiev, even though Kiev has been launching military operations against civilians in the area.

And there was peace in the region until Kiev decided to use military force. There was peace in Ukraine until protesters decided the constitution and vote does not mean anything to them. As for the OSCE, they monitored the 2010 elections, and how did that turn out? What did the OSCE do to ensure the integrity of the democratic system in Ukraine? Nothing. Protesters from the opposing party still ousted the elected leader, now OSCE thinks it is again going to provide advice? What assurances does anyone in Ukraine have that their vote is going to count?

Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
So there it is. No doubt to Russia and the separatists Lithuania's statement is 'fiction' but from where things stand they will continue to refuse to see another side of the war.
Not fiction, just really one sided.
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Old 06-17-2014, 09:03 AM
 
4,456 posts, read 3,690,076 times
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Quote:
And nevertheless I didn't make that choice, quite the opposite. Think hard.
Why ? why on earth ?
Thank you for your opinion. As we can see here, we all look at the world through our own prisms. I have to say this. I am an American but have a European sensibility since my parents were born and bred there. I flow quite easily in both worlds.

I was born in the west but unfortunately got a pretty grim glimpse of the 'East' as I was growing up. At times, I believe individuals pay lip servive to the concept of individual freedom, what it entails and what is needed to preserve it. I saw what happens when it is taken away or trampled upon. The conflict between Russia and Ukraine once again forces upon us that age-old issue. Again East vs West. Again the problem of freedom. Apparently, it never goes away through the milleniums.

Russia unfortunately looks at democratic governments as unstable and uncontrollable. It wants no part of it nor does it want others to have it if they can stop it in its tracks. History has done it before and they will do it again.
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Old 06-17-2014, 09:09 AM
 
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boxus...

i think the Russians really need to get a hold of their end of the border. All Vlad has to do is open his mouth and say the words.
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Old 06-17-2014, 09:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
boxus...

i think the Russians really need to get a hold of their end of the border. All Vlad has to do is open his mouth and say the words.
If it was so simple, then Putin would just "say the word" and all illegal immigrants, heroin, terrorists, illegal trade, etc would all stop infiltrating Russia. Russia, like the US, has issues with securing the border, and the only way to really secure the border is to heavily militarize it. If Russia did this, the West would be screaming and crying about it.

The US, with over 150,000 troops in Iraq, could not secure the border between Iraq and Syria, and this border is about the same size as the Russia-Ukraine border. There is no way for Russia to secure the border without militarizing it, and if they did that, the West along with Kiev would cry about it.
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Old 06-17-2014, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Helsinki, Finland
5,473 posts, read 9,524,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Gomar Holnyuk View Post
Good points! Dont forget the Western Ukrainians who joined the Nazis, Ukrainian Fascists who fought against the Red army. Bandera and the like who realized too late the Nazis wanted to exterminate all Slavs.As for the "Baltic States", look into their history. Latvia and Estonia conquered by Lithuania; who, along with Poland, invaded Ukraine and Russia. The Russians in time freed all from Lithuania, destroyed their empire which stretched down to the Black Sea... Oh, and ifcourse Lithuanian Fascists also fought against the Reds in WWII.
Stepan Bandera always knew that the Nazis might turn their backs on him someday. He might have been a sociopath but not a fool. Nazis used him as a tool but after Bandera and the B wing of OUN declared Ukraine, part of the Reichkommissariat an independent state Berlin ordered a full scale interrogation and possible liquidation of Bandera and his rebels. But at the end of the day the Nazis and Bandera shared a mutual interest, the final extermination of the Untermensch (the old term coined by Nietzsche) and of course to wipe out the Polish resistance movement. But Bandera enjoyed special treatment at Sachsenhausen, special treatment for high profile political prisoners only and was actually released at the tail end of WW2 in hopes of fighting against the advancing Soviets once again. The KGB finally put and end to his miserable existence in post war Germany. And that's pretty much the life and times of the honorable Stepan Bandera and his notorious Insurgent Army.

Last edited by Northwindsforever; 06-17-2014 at 12:14 PM..
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Old 06-17-2014, 07:32 PM
 
4,456 posts, read 3,690,076 times
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Quote:
If it was so simple, then Putin would just "say the word" and all illegal
immigrants, heroin, terrorists, illegal trade, etc would all stop infiltrating
Russia. Russia, like the US, has issues with securing the border, and the only
way to really secure the border is to heavily militarize it. If Russia did this,
the West would be screaming and crying about it
Mr. Putin is silent about the issue. He hasn't said anything. Mum looks to be the 'word' for now.
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Old 06-17-2014, 07:35 PM
 
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And in the world of sport (a bit removed from politics!) I congratulate Kerzhakov for his goal coming 'off the bench'. He sure helped his team after the keeper muffed a save giving the S. Koreans the lead.
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Old 06-17-2014, 09:53 PM
 
14,965 posts, read 13,545,410 times
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People of Slavyansk;
"Every time Poroshenko starts talking about "peaceful resolution" in Eastern Ukraine, we are bombed into the ground."
Again - this is what Western media doesn't show.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT5q3XUXmWk#t=52

I see the writing on the wall for Poroshenko's government, no matter already what else he'll do to East Ukraine.
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