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Old 06-19-2014, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Russia
4,220 posts, read 2,344,863 times
Reputation: 1233

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
Typical Russian cherry-picking...

The official UN article:
United Nations News Centre - UN cites total breakdown of law and order as ?climate of fear? grips eastern Ukraine

The article says that human rights have been violated on both sides, and so is the situation deretiorating, but naturally the Russian media twists this to "Ukrainian Army is commiting war crimes against innocent children and the Donbass separatists are rightful soldiers of god".
https://twitter.com/kp_steshin

Correspondent writes:

"Just returned from Golubovka. Quiet village near Karachun. No blocks or militia. Today 8.00 pm some son of a ***** fired a dozen mortar by homes. After the rupture of the first series of Lena Danchenko rushed for a five-year Arseny, he played in the yard. Lena was torn to pieces by a mine. Arseny now on the operating table - is removed from the head fragments in a serious condition. Total killed three and wounded five. Why did he shoot? I do not know."

And it happens every day, every few hours.
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Old 06-19-2014, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Finland
24,268 posts, read 18,685,659 times
Reputation: 11103
Russia doesn't negotiate with terrorists, so why should Ukraine?
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Old 06-19-2014, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Russia
4,220 posts, read 2,344,863 times
Reputation: 1233
Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
^
Maksim....my suggestion.... Call your representative ......urge them to THINK before more and more of Ukraine explodes.
Nobody will listen to me.

But the more I look at the situation, the more I want to Russia sent troops. Even if the standard of living in Russia temporarily fall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
I've been watching the World Cup. We can learn /a little bit about the world there. One usually can see how chaos in the defense and in the midfield contributes and leads to a loss. Once it's out it's hard to recover. A point to ponder.

I like soccer and also watch the matches. I think the best chance have Germany. The U.S. has a good team. Force the Russian team will explore in a meeting with Belgium.
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Old 06-19-2014, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Russia
4,220 posts, read 2,344,863 times
Reputation: 1233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
Russia doesn't negotiate with terrorists, so why should Ukraine?
Who was the terrorists we learn from the history books later.
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Old 06-19-2014, 01:20 PM
 
15,401 posts, read 13,416,663 times
Reputation: 20886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
Russia doesn't negotiate with terrorists, so why should Ukraine?
They are not terrorists in even the most liberal meaning of the word, that is why most of the western media, and all the established media sources, and the governments of the West do not even state they are terrorists.

But your statement is reflective of Kiev's problems, and why they have not solved them; the inability or lack of will to even consider any degree of inclusiveness of others. It is this disenfranchisement, reflected in your post, that has caused this problem in the first place.

Every government in the world, including Russia and the US, negotiates with everyone, including terrorists.

Ukraine threw the "terror" label as an act to try to undermine support, and add some demonic label to the separatists. No different than the labeling of them as "subhuman", no different than any form of bigoted name calling of groups in efforts to dehumanize them.

Kiev fails to understand that when/if this is all over, and when/if Kiev wins, Kiev and the people of this area are suppose to get long and life goes on as usual. Difficult to do when there is a constant effort to dehumanize everyone in the area.
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Old 06-19-2014, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Finland
24,268 posts, read 18,685,659 times
Reputation: 11103
If the Donbass separatists don't want to be a part of Ukraine, they can just pack their bags and leave to mother Russia. They don't have the right to just split up the whole country, at least not when they and their ideas are a minority in the area.

If they think they'll have a better life in Russia, go. So did millions and millions of Europeans only 100 years ago.
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Old 06-19-2014, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Donetsk
238 posts, read 151,939 times
Reputation: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
If the Donbass separatists don't want to be a part of Ukraine, they can just pack their bags and leave to mother Russia. They don't have the right to just split up the whole country, at least not when they and their ideas are a minority in the area.

If they think they'll have a better life in Russia, go. So did millions and millions of Europeans only 100 years ago.
Actually when Ukraine decided to be independent, they exactly split the whole country. So maybe Ukraine can't be called a country? Or maybe Novorossia now does something different?
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Old 06-19-2014, 02:16 PM
 
15,401 posts, read 13,416,663 times
Reputation: 20886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
If the Donbass separatists don't want to be a part of Ukraine, they can just pack their bags and leave to mother Russia. They don't have the right to just split up the whole country, at least not when they and their ideas are a minority in the area.

If they think they'll have a better life in Russia, go. So did millions and millions of Europeans only 100 years ago.
1. Maidan was not supported by the majority, Yanukovich was elected by the majority.

2. When Yanukovich was ousted unconstitutionally, this dissolved the legal basis for the country staying together, thus the once the constitutional was grossly violated by ousting the president, the knitting of democracy and represented rule that held Ukraine together went along with it.

3. Finland used the abdication of the tsar as the legal basis for its claim to independence from Russia. Even the Finnish Civil War had intervention from the outside, yes, even your own internal conflict was settled with the assistance of outsiders as well as the US Revolutionary War.

4. They are not splitting up the whole country, just separating Donbass from the calamity Kiev has ended up being. People get tired of going through revolts (second one in ten years), and having their elected president get ousted by the minority party that lost the election.

5. Know one has any idea how much support they have from locals in the area. It is known for fact that they do have a sizable support, whether this is a majority or not who knows. Also is known that there is a sizable anti-Kiev sentiment as well, whether this is a majority or not who knows. It is also not known how many do not support Kiev, yet supports staying with Ukraine or not stay with Ukraine, become independent or join Russia, or who support Ukraine but also with factors above. No legitimate poll has been conducted.

As a note, the US Revolution against England also did not have the majority support. It is rare for any movement like this to have a majority support.
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Old 06-19-2014, 02:19 PM
 
15,401 posts, read 13,416,663 times
Reputation: 20886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selena822 View Post
Actually when Ukraine decided to be independent, they exactly split the whole country. So maybe Ukraine can't be called a country? Or maybe Novorossia now does something different?
Well, this is one way to look at it. It can be viewed that Kiev and the rest of Ukraine split from Donbass if Donbass still holds Yanukovich as the legitimate president. So in fact Kiev and other areas rebelled against the government, and now the final parts of the original government as held by Yanukovich is defending itself against the rebels. This would be similar to a "government in exile" situation.
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Old 06-19-2014, 03:30 PM
 
4,456 posts, read 3,690,506 times
Reputation: 3104
Boxus...

I'm afraid I disagree with you big time on this. Contrary to what you say Russia's behavior does point to an aversion with nationalism. It's there with the Baltics, Poland, Hungary and the rest of the former satellite states and in their former territories. They at one time succumbed to the Russian version of the NIH syndrome. Know what that is? The 'not invented' here' syndrome. If not squish it down. At bottom as I've said this entire crises is simply a fight for political and economic freedom. Unfortunately, it's dirty like all 'good' revolutions.
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