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Old 01-22-2015, 01:39 AM
 
Location: Russia
4,221 posts, read 2,360,469 times
Reputation: 1233

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Donetsk. An artillery shell got into bus stop and killed 13 people.

http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/3469514-v-donetske-snariad-popal-v-ostanovku-pohybly-13-chelovek
http://russian.rt.com/article/70147
http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1713839

Ukrainians should answer for these killings.

UPD:
Local residents almost killed Ukrainian POWs, who were brought to the scene of the explosion of shells.


Last edited by Maksim_Frolov; 01-22-2015 at 02:03 AM..
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Old 01-22-2015, 08:52 AM
 
10,467 posts, read 8,417,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selena822 View Post
Interesting, how much times more I, inhabitant of Donetsk must repeat all people which even doesn't know where Donetsk is and never been here that here is no russian army and never were? All blood is on hands of Petr Poroshenko and another persons responcible for Euromydan. We say "no matter how many times you say" paste "in the mouth will not become sweeter". Similarly I can tell you, no matter how much times you'll say" it's Putin's fault" Russian army won't come here in order to bombard disagree with Kiev policy cities
I am well aware of the location of Donetsk, having Ukrainian relatives from that oblast who traveled extensively there, from Mariupol through the city of Donetsk to Artimivsk and beyond most recently.

And I am well aware of the events of the last thirteen months in Donbass, and what led to them. Russian aggression and former KGB leader Putin's fear of Ukraine becoming truly independent, cleaning up the corruption, and aligning with Europe as a modern democracy whose people determine its leadership and direction through honest ballots.

The ballots in Crimea, and later in Donbass, were anything but honest. Bribery and corruption continue to reign there, as does torture of both civilian prisoners and military prisoners of war, in open violation of the Geneva conventions.

Who do you think is bombing the Donetsk airport, and why? Ukraine is defending her own territory there. It does not belong to Russia, nor is Donetsk, Luhansk nor Crimea Russian. Who do you think those "little green men" are?

What do you think is in those incessant convoys of so-called "humanitarian" aid from Russia? If it is truly humanitarian aid, destined for civilians, why does Russia deliberately refuse to stop at the border checkpoints and have the contents go through Ukrainian customs, as should be done, and as my own charitable donations and all others must do? Why are non-aligned inspectors not allowed to view the contents of these lorries?

How do you think that civilian plane got shot down over Torez? Ukraine did not have the weaponry used to achieve this atrocity. The weapons were supplied by Russia, to so-called "separatists" who would be better termed terrorists, for they brought terror and death to the skies of Ukraine and to the innocent civilians both in the air and continue to do so to innocents on the ground.

Who shot a bus filled with civilians last week, killing twelve people trying to go about their daily routines? Not Ukraine. A bright yellow bus cannot be mistaken for a military vehicle.

Why are the children's school books and curriculum being replaced by pro-Russian materials? Why are schoolchildren in Occupied Ukraine punished for singing the Ukrainian national anthem? Why is censorship of other printed materials which do not conform with the Russian line becoming the norm? One word; one man: Putin.

I am sorry for your personal suffering, but please educate yourself as to the cause. Do not buy the Russian line - since you have Internet access still, read as widely as you can, from all sources, and learn the truth. Do not be persuaded by the easy answers given you by Russia, and don't trade your character for Russian bread.

Learn the truth. It is not the Ukrainian government nor the people of Maidan which led to this debacle. Get Russia and those who consider themselves Russian or who want to be aligned with her out of Ukraine, and it would be a different story.

Like you, I pray for peace in Donetsk and the rest of Ukraine. But I also pray for justice and democracy and an end to the Russian invasion and sponsor of separatist terrorism.

Last edited by CraigCreek; 01-22-2015 at 09:01 AM..
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Old 01-22-2015, 09:02 AM
 
10,467 posts, read 8,417,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maksim_Frolov View Post
Why should Ukraine answer for these killings, when the artillery shell which killed these poor people was Russian?
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Old 01-22-2015, 09:44 AM
 
10,467 posts, read 8,417,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
I don't understand why do you keep on lamenting about some "severely delayed" Russian children somewhere in Donbass. Did the US government care about what was happening to Russian children ( severely delayed including) back in the nineties, while pushing for criminal economic reforms? I think not, and everything what's happening to "severely delayed" children in Donbass and elsewhere in Russia today is the direct result of those events.
So enough of hypocrisy already.
Suffering in that part of the world matters only when it brings political dividends to the US I've noticed.

Utter nonsense. I know many, many American families who have adopted children who were discarded by their birth parents, neglected by their governments, and sent to places like Torez, both in Russia and Ukraine, and I know even more Americans who support non-profits, both American and Ukrainian, who work hard to compensate for the lack of state care in such places.

My family is one of those families, and I am one of those Americans who helps support orphans in Ukraine and in other countries. I'd continue to do it for Russian orphans, too, if I still were allowed to do so by the current Russian government, but alas, that is no longer possible, so the children suffer and all too often, die. So I do what I can, where I can, and spread the word wherever I can, including here.

Take a look at United Nations reports about the status of children living in orphanages and institutions in Russia and parts of the former Soviet Union, if you don't believe me and still want to blame my government for what is clearly your own government's doings. I am not the hypocrite here.

It's clear that you have little knowledge of this situation, so I hope you'll educate yourself - maybe then you'll understand why I "keep on lamenting about some 'severely delayed' (Ukrainian, not Russian) children somewhere in Donbass".

The children I referenced were previously in Torez, a very distinct location which I can pinpoint on a map of Donetsk Oblast. The village of Torez got a lot of attention when Russian-armed terrorists shot down that civilian air liner last summer, but those of us in the adoption and orphan care community were long familiar with it for another reason: the Torez mental institution, which housed hundreds of children and adults with a wide variety of special needs for many years. A few were lucky enough to be adopted, either domestically or internationally. Many others died in Torez, largely of preventable causes and inadequate care, though the overwhelmed caregivers did their best. Torez was old, drafty, not designed to care for people with special needs, and understaffed and underfunded.

The remaining former Torez residents are now in a safer location in Ukraine, and receiving better care. They are not Russian, they are Ukrainian - but children like them are treated similarly in remote orphanages and mental institutions all over Russia. Educate yourself - regardless of your politics and government, it is a shameful situation that is all too little known, both in your country and mine.

Parental rejection of newborns with special needs is long-established in the former Soviet Union. Old folk beliefs were that parents were punished for their sins by the births of such children, and later, the Stalinist view was that people who could not contribute to "the state" were of no value to the state, and hence of no personal value whatsoever, and the very false belief that such children were "numb", and unable to feel pain, sorrow, happiness, joy, or comprehend anything at all contributed to these hellholes. Even caring parents are urged to give up their newborns to the state, and are often told that the state can care for these children better than can their birth parents. Sadly, this is far from true.

Even today, children with orthopedic or communicative special needs are routinely assigned to such places, regardless of their intellectual levels. I know of many such children, who came home with American adoptive parents only to be placed in intensive care in specialized children's hospitals for re-feeding syndrome (due to starvation) as soon as the planes landed in the United States. Given proper care and love, these children are now thriving in loving families. I met many of these children at a "family reunion" for adoptive families just last summer.

Views are slowly changing in both Ukraine and Russia about the potential of these children, but views are one thing and adequate funding and education of orphanage workers and health care givers - and parents, and obviously, the general public - is another.

Blaming American policies of the 1990s for such situations reveals your ignorance of both the orphan crisis in your country and its former satellite countries, and your lack of knowledge of the truth.
I hope you will pursue this. Educate yourself, look at American, Russian, and Ukrainian websites and blogs of various agencies and non-profits who work with orphanages, perhaps visit such places yourself - ask around, there are many - and learn the truth, and join those of us who do what we can to help the innocent children who suffer through no fault of their own, and who are unaware of governments and politics.

Visit an orphanage. Take some disposable diapers in appropriate sizes to give the caregivers, and bananas for the kids - the children seldom get fresh fruit, and diapers are always in short supply. Talk with the caregivers. Visit the children. Smile at them, talk to them, hug them. They are starved for adult attention and affection. Give the bananas directly to the children - help them eat small bites if they are unable to feed themselves. Make sure they are not lying prone when they eat, so they won't choke.

Then go home, and think about what you've seen and learned, thank God for your good health and that of any children you may have, and ask yourself what you can do personally to help these innocents who are not so fortunate. You'd be making far better use of your time than by posting here, as you'd be doing tangible good and easing the lives of these innocents who are the most vulnerable of all children.

It's not as easy as sitting at a computer, posting messages which blame a country and its people thousands of miles away for the wrongs, of course, and it's not always pleasant to witness such places. But you are where you can visit without much difficulty - I can only mail things (warm clothing, toys, non-perishable foods) and donate from that country you blame for your country's children's plight. Instead of blaming, why not educate yourself and see for yourself?

If you have a heart - as most Russian do - you will be moved to help in whatever small way you can, regardless of how difficult it is to see suffering, lonely, and unloved children, or how unpleasant it is to visit such places. The payoff is in knowing that you've made a tangible difference for at least a few...
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Old 01-22-2015, 09:58 AM
 
4,456 posts, read 3,702,136 times
Reputation: 3108
Quote:
Ukrainians should answer for these killings.
This is a another new attack on a bus I think? Anything on the other one? Haven't heard a 'peep on the perps'.
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Old 01-22-2015, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Donetsk
238 posts, read 152,504 times
Reputation: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
I am well aware of the location of Donetsk, having Ukrainian relatives from that oblast who traveled extensively there, from Mariupol through the city of Donetsk to Artimivsk and beyond most recently.

And I am well aware of the events of the last thirteen months in Donbass, and what led to them. Russian aggression and former KGB leader Putin's fear of Ukraine becoming truly independent, cleaning up the corruption, and aligning with Europe as a modern democracy whose people determine its leadership and direction through honest ballots.

The ballots in Crimea, and later in Donbass, were anything but honest. Bribery and corruption continue to reign there, as does torture of both civilian prisoners and military prisoners of war, in open violation of the Geneva conventions.

Who do you think is bombing the Donetsk airport, and why? Ukraine is defending her own territory there. It does not belong to Russia, nor is Donetsk, Luhansk nor Crimea Russian. Who do you think those "little green men" are?

What do you think is in those incessant convoys of so-called "humanitarian" aid from Russia? If it is truly humanitarian aid, destined for civilians, why does Russia deliberately refuse to stop at the border checkpoints and have the contents go through Ukrainian customs, as should be done, and as my own charitable donations and all others must do? Why are non-aligned inspectors not allowed to view the contents of these lorries?

How do you think that civilian plane got shot down over Torez? Ukraine did not have the weaponry used to achieve this atrocity. The weapons were supplied by Russia, to so-called "separatists" who would be better termed terrorists, for they brought terror and death to the skies of Ukraine and to the innocent civilians both in the air and continue to do so to innocents on the ground.

Who shot a bus filled with civilians last week, killing twelve people trying to go about their daily routines? Not Ukraine. A bright yellow bus cannot be mistaken for a military vehicle.

Why are the children's school books and curriculum being replaced by pro-Russian materials? Why are schoolchildren in Occupied Ukraine punished for singing the Ukrainian national anthem? Why is censorship of other printed materials which do not conform with the Russian line becoming the norm? One word; one man: Putin.

I am sorry for your personal suffering, but please educate yourself as to the cause. Do not buy the Russian line - since you have Internet access still, read as widely as you can, from all sources, and learn the truth. Do not be persuaded by the easy answers given you by Russia, and don't trade your character for Russian bread.

Learn the truth. It is not the Ukrainian government nor the people of Maidan which led to this debacle. Get Russia and those who consider themselves Russian or who want to be aligned with her out of Ukraine, and it would be a different story.

Like you, I pray for peace in Donetsk and the rest of Ukraine. But I also pray for justice and democracy and an end to the Russian invasion and sponsor of separatist terrorism.
Sorry, but I don't believe that these relatives exist. Should I explain why, or you understand how implausible your words are too?
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Old 01-22-2015, 10:26 AM
 
15,029 posts, read 13,614,987 times
Reputation: 6916
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
Utter nonsense. I know many, many American families who have adopted children who were discarded by their birth parents, neglected by their governments, and sent to places like Torez, both in Russia and Ukraine, and I know even more Americans who support non-profits, both American and Ukrainian, who work hard to compensate for the lack of state care in such places.
And why would they have abandoned their children?
Not because the price of bread loaf became equivalent of the daily salary don't you think, not because there were no jobs available, since people have been thrown en mass on the streets, because the IMF ( read American government) told to "close unprofitable enterprises" and demanded to stop subsidies? The only profitable were oil and gas, weren't they?
Of course people started "discarding their children" giving them up for orphanages, since they didn't want to see them starving at home. And that's when "kind-hearted Americans" rushed to pick them up; many hoping for easy adoption of white infants - the kind that are not readily available in the US.
And the criminal Russian government that neglected all these people with their children was in full cooperation with American government, so don't you pretend like this never happened. "Utter nonsense" - yeah, sure, you wish. Obviously this "abandonment of children" en mass and the amount of them on the streets was the direct result of the criminal reforms and removal of the social security net. Or are you telling me that it was the same during Soviet times?
So save the rest of your "passionate appeals" for yourself please. They are not worth my time.
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Old 01-22-2015, 10:46 AM
 
15,029 posts, read 13,614,987 times
Reputation: 6916
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCreek View Post
Why should Ukraine answer for these killings, when the artillery shell which killed these poor people was Russian?
Because this is the map for you that clearly explains who wanted Yanukovich to be removed and who wanted "unification with E.U."

http://i.imgur.com/q8vEQaz.jpg

If these people are forcing their desires on the party unwilling to participate in these changes, being ready to exterminate population that resists, they become war criminals - plain and simple.

( And now back to previously scheduled program about "your relatives from East Ukraine" )
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Old 01-22-2015, 10:48 AM
 
15,029 posts, read 13,614,987 times
Reputation: 6916
Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
This is a another new attack on a bus I think? Anything on the other one? Haven't heard a 'peep on the perps'.
There are quite a few of them lately.

The rebels keep on "bombing themselves," and bombing, and bombing))))

(These are school and children's daycare center as you can see.)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS_fkmcfzsU

And why there should be a "peep" in Western media about it?
It's Russians who are bombed, so it's a good thing.

Last edited by erasure; 01-22-2015 at 11:05 AM..
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Old 01-22-2015, 10:59 AM
 
8,005 posts, read 7,290,867 times
Reputation: 6382
Poroshenko wants $50 billion from the IMF

Poroshenko Tells IMF Ukraine Now Needs $50 Billion As Fascist Militias Threaten Kiev | FDL News Desk

Sounds like a war budget, tripling the previous 'aid' budget of $17 billion, of which 60% went to service debt.
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