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Old 03-08-2014, 11:37 AM
 
392 posts, read 290,588 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coseau View Post
I agree maybe it is time they stood on their own. The reason why they have trouble standing on their own is they have the misfortune of being geographically located between 2 much larger political entities competing for influence. If they decide to stand on their own they must decide to suffer some severe economical pain because of the debt load of their government. They are not the only country unique in that circumstance, even the United States has a serious debt problem that is going to catch up with them in the future. The question is do they want to take IMF and EU loans and have those entities dictate how they suffer along the lines the way Greece, Bulgaria and Latvia or just default on their debts and endure hyperinflation and suffer like Iceland and Argentina. Personally if you are going to suffer you might as well get it over as quickly as possible so i would prefer to default. Since they produce a lot of food the Ukraine government could confiscate the food supply due to emergency of the situation to make sure their citizens doesn't starve. I think the average Ukrainian is lured by glamour and wealthy standards of living enjoyed by many citizens of the EU and they want to enjoy the same which leads me to believe they are going be seduced by the EU and have the EU dictate to their government.
You see it in recent Russian immigrants that arrive in Toronto in the last 15 years...The are all about western glamour and MONEY. Of course the EU looks like a good partner...but what the Ukraine fails to realize is that the EU is a national socialist entity...and under EU dominance the Ukrainian culture will in time be internally displaced through rampant and open immigration....Europe is no longer Europe...I have spoken to young people out of Ireland and they say in some towns they are out numbered by other cultures.

Ukraine must ask themselves are they ready to forfeit their culture for a few extra dollars?
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Old 03-08-2014, 11:51 AM
 
1,746 posts, read 4,632,472 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Wait, what are you saying, that it's Russians who are coming to Ukraine and pretend to be Nazis?
Yeah right.
Russian nazis have different agenda, they are too busy with their own "goals."
I was not talking about Russian Nazis. I was talking about Russians without any insignia selling themselves as Ukrainian Nazis in the territory of Ukraine.

And why (could it) not (be the case)? Putin said many times that ist's not Russian forces in Crimea, but Ukrainian self-defence groups who occupaid the territory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
You know that Crimea is "Ukrainian" in the name only, don't you? ( that's if we all are going to be honest here.)
If this belief is your starting point, then I understand the motivation behind all your posts.

All I know is that Crimea is a part of Ukraine.

Meanwhile, Russian forces in Crimea bull and harrass minorities and foreign journalists.

"In addition to the Russian troops, the province is prowled by roving bands of "self defence" forces and Cossacks in fur hats armed with whips who were bused in from southern Russia."

Ukraine crisis: Fresh confrontations on ground in Crimea - World - CBC News
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Old 03-08-2014, 11:55 AM
 
15,031 posts, read 13,618,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by movingwiththewind View Post
Erasure, I agree with you that there may be a reason for concerns. Moveover, I'd say, if this is the case, not only Russian speaking population but the whole population of Ukraine should be concerned.
I agree. The whole population of Ukraine should be concerned. Never in my life I thought of Ukrainians as "nationalists." Although I've heard about that movement "somewhere in the Western part" long time ago but to me Ukrainians were always coming across as hospitable and warm folks. So I thought that "Ukrainian nationalism" wasn't something anything serious, rather something marginal. I am looking closer into the "Right sector," "Svoboda," Bandera et al for the first time now.




Quote:
I also agree with media. However, all those people on youtube may be brainwashed, as well?
We are all "brainwashed" up to a certain degree, the question is what message we respond to and why.



Quote:
They may be idiots, but unlike most other idiots, at least they look good, are creative and are probably non-violent.
Their "creativity" is grossly misplaced; now "***** Riot" with their prayer - that was a real thing.
That's why they had to pay for it.
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Old 03-08-2014, 12:10 PM
 
1,746 posts, read 4,632,472 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Their "creativity" is grossly misplaced; now "***** Riot" with their prayer - that was a real thing.
That's why they had to pay for it.
Would you change your opinion if a member of FEMEN gets jailed by Russian authorities?

I don't even know if there any Russian citizens who are members in their organization and if they also operate in Russia.
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Old 03-08-2014, 12:28 PM
 
4,456 posts, read 3,702,624 times
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Quote:
Ukraine must ask themselves are they ready to forfeit their culture for a few extra dollars?
Well you know the Poles got away and the Czechs, the Bulgarians, the Slovaks, the Hungarians too from Russian 'influence'. Those countries are on their own now. This time it looks like it has come for the Ukrainians. I don't know but I'd say as the world moves on events will move to directions away from a country believing it must be under a 'yoke' of some sort. Ukraine looks like it has crossed that line for good. And it is not the state like Krushchev worked with back in his time when he held all the cards in 'brotherhood'.

And been watching Al Jazeera. Interesting. I was happy to see some incisive commentary on the 'Eurasian' troubles. And really I wish I could sign up to get a Rossiya feed or even a Russian 'independent' channel (how many exist?) for that matter around here just to see how they report the news. But it' would be as rare as a Lenin statue in downtown Washington. Such is our discourse for 'understanding'.
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Old 03-08-2014, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Kennedy Heights, Ohio. USA
1,819 posts, read 1,492,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alec Bachlow View Post
The worst and most immature idiotic commentary on the net flows from Utube...It is absolutely the worst! The visuals on Utube are highly informative...the rest can go in the garbage. There is still a strong ignorance in the west regarding Ukraine...and Russia.. The culture and language is almost indistinguishable. The worst perspective and attitude that watchers of this situation can have is that Russia is some stranger entering with force in the the Ukrainian national household...It's more like a big brother dominating the younger sibling.

What most do not realize about Russia and the Ukraine since the fall of the Soviet Empire ....is that like before there is an institutional poverty that exists and has always existed. The primary gripe Ukraine has as does the rest of the Russian population - is that their lot in life is boarder line poverty or full blown dire straights...This is about having a real un-corrupted government...and it is about money and simple creature comforts...The drab shadow of old communism is like a scar that will not fade. It is going to take a decade or so for Russia and the Ukraine to over come the curse of godless communism...

Look at the visuals and the infrastructure...everything is still substandard..The Ukraine like Russia is developmentally decades behind...I noticed this with Russian immigrants and their kids trying to be cool....We as a pop culture were role modeling after Madonna at that time...and their teenagers were dressing like Alice Cooper....What ever goes on in the west...remember that Russia and the Ukraine are twenty years in the past...It will take them time to catch up if you know what I mean...They are poor and backward.
Great insight. I always wondered that about the Ukraine and Russian languages and looked to see if Ukraine was a distinct language or a dialect of the Russian language that drifted far apart over the ages but can still be understood by native speakers of Russian. Ukraine and Russia after the breakup of the Soviet Union transitioned into the economic system of capitalism in the worst possible way.Seems they adopted the worst possible traits of capitalism such as concentration of wealth into few hands. Privatization schemes did little to benefit the average citizen of Russia and Ukraine. The few connected insiders of Russia and Ukraine divided the state owned resources and assets and became very rich oligarchs similar to the monopolist robber barons in the United States at the turn of the 19th century. I don't know if it was the effect of godless communism but the simple fact that these nations suffered so greatly from the effects of World War One, the Russian Civil War and World War Two. These three wars left a permanent scar in psyche of the populace and leadership of these nations that led to over militarization and of society that ultimately bankrupted them. Food shortages and starvation was a great problem during WWI and the subsequent Russian Civil War that led to the confiscation of agricultural land of Ukraine by the Soviets. The Kulaks were severely repressed resulting in millions of deaths because they were seen as having bourgeoisie sympathies subversive to the Soviet system of no private ownership of land. The subsequent police state and repression of people thought to be subversive to the state because of the chaos these wars bought upon these nations also left a lasting scar in the psyche of the average ethic Ukrainian.

Last edited by Coseau; 03-08-2014 at 12:42 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 03-08-2014, 12:43 PM
 
15,031 posts, read 13,618,313 times
Reputation: 6916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coseau View Post
I agree maybe it is time they stood on their own. The reason why they have trouble standing on their own is they have the misfortune of being geographically located between 2 much larger political entities competing for influence. If they decide to stand on their own they must decide to suffer some severe economical pain because of the debt load of their government. They are not the only country unique in that circumstance, even the United States has a serious debt problem that is going to catch up with them in the future. The question is do they want to take IMF and EU loans and have those entities dictate how they suffer along the lines the way Greece, Bulgaria and Latvia or just default on their debts and endure hyperinflation and suffer like Iceland and Argentina. Personally if you are going to suffer you might as well get it over as quickly as possible so i would prefer to default. Since they produce a lot of food the Ukraine government could confiscate the food supply due to emergency of the situation to make sure their citizens doesn't starve. I think the average Ukrainian is lured by glamour and wealthy standards of living enjoyed by many citizens of the EU and they want to enjoy the same which leads me to believe they are going be seduced by the EU and have the EU dictate to their government.
Truth to be told, Ukraine could never stand on its own.
Even back in middle ages when Ukraine became former *Russian province* left behind, it has been overrun by Poland (not part of the E.U yet back then ) but which is still standing behind the push for Ukraine to be included in the E.U nevertheless.
And that's why Ukrainians have asked for Russian protection.

Treaty of Pereyaslav - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From that point on Ukraine became inseparable part of Russia, the breadbasket of the country, with Russian part supplying it with natural resources and what's not, and Ukrainians guarding the western border of Russia.
And it was precisely the 300th anniversary of this treaty of reunification of Ukraine and Russia, when Khrushev gifted Russian Crimea to Ukraine as a gesture of trust and love for Ukrainians.
Now Khrushev himself was ETHNIC RUSSIAN ( in spite of all the rumors and speculations of his ethnicity) born in Russian region bordering with Ukraine - a person who spent a lot of time in Ukraine, because of his job.
More than that - in 1991, during the all-Soviet referendum, 81.7% of Ukrainan population voted to keep the union with Russia alive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_...ferendum,_1991

( As actually many other people in different republics.)

So now, I'd be very grateful if anyone could tell me, who and what was standing behind the decision to break these two apart, in spite of the will of Ukrainian and Russian people.
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Old 03-08-2014, 12:58 PM
 
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There are many varieties of Russian nationalism, but, amazingly, Russians and Russian speakers don't consider themselves to be nationalistic or bonafide fascists (even though modern Russia fits classical definition of a fascist state quite well, even without this Sudetenland remake). This remarkable blindness to their own nationalism if not Nazism is a permanent feature of the Russian character, they would insult your culture and they don't even realize that they insulted you, it's just a friendly joke for them showing how friendly they are, but if you return exactly the same joke/name turned upside down they would definitely consider you a virulent Ukrainian etc. nationalist, Banderovets, Nazi, etc.. 300 years of imperial conditioning fertilized the grounds for this peculiar ambivalence. Russians are (virulently) nationalistic and fairly racist people, anything from bonafide neo Nazis to the cultural nationalists who deems others languages and cultures within former USSR border inferior and/or harmful for human IQ.

Actually, back in the days of "internationalist" USSR it was fairly common for a Russian speaker to ask a Ukrainian speaking in Ukrainian to his kids something like this: "Why are you crippling mental development of your child by speaking to him in that hick language?". If you think Eastern Ukraine became Russian speaking 100% voluntarily, think again. Crazy attitudes like that are alive and well in Crimea and to lesser extent in Eastern Ukraine. Russians tolerate (barely) other cultures only if they don't demand any public space in education, administration, science, or anything of importance that might inconvenience a Russian. It's OK to keep your ethnic language to yourself within comfort of your house, but if you display that in open, gosh forbid if you demand some some public space for your culture, it tends to annoy cultural nationalism of the Russians who rarely learn languages and customs of the people they live with. Had you've made a trip to Crimea 5 years back you would have been explained that it's impossible to learn Mathematics in Ukrainian and such, only superior Russian language is capable of such enormous undertaking which is total BS, but for those Russians it's real fact. You can imagine what's going on with those people now, it's rabid Russian Nazi fest, there is no lesser word. Personally, I wouldn't want to live with those people under the same roof, but pacifying those people with Crimea independence is not a solution. Ukraine, its language has no right to exist in the mind of those people.

Those are Russian "anti-fascists", I've never met a real Russian neo Nazi, but I really doubt they could be any more rabid than Sevastopol "anit-fascists". Russia is sick, and feeding the disease will make things only worse.
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Old 03-08-2014, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Kennedy Heights, Ohio. USA
1,819 posts, read 1,492,140 times
Reputation: 1424
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
There are many varieties of Russian nationalism, but, amazingly, Russians and Russian speakers don't consider themselves to be nationalistic or bonafide fascists (even though modern Russia fits classical definition of a fascist state quite well, even without this Sudetenland remake). This remarkable blindness to their own nationalism if not Nazism is a permanent feature of the Russian character, they would insult your culture and they don't even realize that they insulted you, it's just a friendly joke for them showing how friendly they are, but if you return exactly the same joke/name turned upside down they would definitely consider you a virulent Ukrainian etc. nationalist, Banderovets, Nazi, etc.. 300 years of imperial conditioning fertilized the grounds for this peculiar ambivalence. Russians are (virulently) nationalistic and fairly racist people, anything from bonafide neo Nazis to the cultural nationalists who deems others languages and cultures within former USSR border inferior and/or harmful for human IQ.

Actually, back in the days of "internationalist" USSR it was fairly common for a Russian speaker to ask a Ukrainian speaking in Ukrainian to his kids something like this: "Why are you crippling mental development of your child by speaking to him in that hick language?". If you think Eastern Ukraine became Russian speaking 100% voluntarily, think again. Crazy attitudes like that are alive and well in Crimea and to lesser extent in Eastern Ukraine. Russians tolerate (barely) other cultures only if they don't demand any public space in education, administration, science, or anything of importance that might inconvenience a Russian. It's OK to keep your ethnic language to yourself within comfort of your house, but if you display that in open, gosh forbid if you demand some some public space for your culture, it tends to annoy cultural nationalism of the Russians who rarely learn languages and customs of the people they live with. Had you've made a trip to Crimea 5 years back you would have been explained that it's impossible to learn Mathematics in Ukrainian and such, only superior Russian language is capable of such enormous undertaking which is total BS, but for those Russians it's real fact. You can imagine what's going on with those people now, it's rabid Russian Nazi fest, there is no lesser word. Personally, I wouldn't want to live with those people under the same roof, but pacifying those people with Crimea independence is not a solution. Ukraine, its language has no right to exist in the mind of those people.

Those are Russian "anti-fascists", I've never met a real Russian neo Nazi, but I really doubt they could be any more rabid than Sevastopol "anit-fascists". Russia is sick, and feeding the disease will make things only worse.
Interesting and believable. I actually think a lot nations have this superiority complex especially concerning minorities and language in their community. Maybe its just human nature. If you speak with a southern drawl in the USA people assume you are an uneducated unintelligent ignorant hayseed. I won't even go into the black white experience in the Americas. The Mexicans assume they are superior to the Salvadorians and Salvadorians consider it an insult to be labeled an Mexican. Canadian English speakers are not very welcomed in French speaking Quebec and feel discriminated against while living there. The Japanese are very racially nationalistic assuming they are superior to Chinese and other Asians. The Chinese feel they are superior to the Vietnamese. The Indian subcontinent under the surface still suffers from the effects of its past caste system. All these beliefs causes resentments to the populace on the wrong end of the stick.

Last edited by Coseau; 03-08-2014 at 02:12 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 03-08-2014, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Finland
24,268 posts, read 18,769,589 times
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Erasure, you seem to be a smart girl (even if you're like 50). Those 100 people killed on Maidan weren't Right Sector activists, but regular Ukrainians demanding more democracy, free elections and less corruption. And people died for these ideals. They weren't led by fascists, but did it for themselves.

Freedom fighters they are and so they will be.

SLAVA UKRAINI! FU** PUTIN!
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