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Old 03-08-2014, 09:53 PM
 
15,536 posts, read 13,524,055 times
Reputation: 21252

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
I have been to the Ukraine, Belarus and Russia many times since 1994. I did quality control and warranty maintenance on the Metro locomotives 81-470s and the older Soviet stock all over. I learned a lot of the language and got to know a lot of the people. I know the Moscow Metro better than some Muscovites do. Same with Kiev and Kharkov.

I'm no authority in this, I wouldn't claim that status mainly because of what I hear all through the media of both sides. My informed opinion on this subject is that the Ukraine needs to split down the Dneiper river, Kiev will go to the Eastern part. Lvov can be the capital of the west, if it isn't Warsaw.

The 2 halves are too dissimilar in all ways. Simple as that, there's nothing else to say about it. Let the east and west go their own way. That's the solution.
But this is not about Ukraine and everything ending peacefully, this is about Russia versus the West. In geopolitics, the West needs Russia to not access the Black Sea, thus the Med, it is as simple as that. This is a huge stepping stone towards isolating Russia more, thus leveraging its natural resources for the West's use.

Having Ukraine split would not accomplish any of this, this is why there is firm anti-splitting by the West and Ukraine who is sponsored now by the West. The West will also take a firm stance ion Crimea, as this is a key point to Russia's access to the Black Sea.

The West does not care about Ukrainians' "freedoms"; there could be a Stalinist dictator there for all the West cares, all the West cares about is Ukraine siding with the West, but they need all of Ukraine for this, not some dirt poor western part without Crimea.
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:06 PM
 
15,035 posts, read 13,625,077 times
Reputation: 6916
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
But this is not about Ukraine and everything ending peacefully, this is about Russia versus the West. In geopolitics, the West needs Russia to not access the Black Sea, thus the Med, it is as simple as that. This is a huge stepping stone towards isolating Russia more, thus leveraging its natural resources for the West's use.

Having Ukraine split would not accomplish any of this, this is why there is firm anti-splitting by the West and Ukraine who is sponsored now by the West. The West will also take a firm stance ion Crimea, as this is a key point to Russia's access to the Black Sea.

The West does not care about Ukrainians' "freedoms"; there could be a Stalinist dictator there for all the West cares, all the West cares about is Ukraine siding with the West, but they need all of Ukraine for this, not some dirt poor western part without Crimea.
No-no Boxus wait, we need to hear one more time about the Maidan heroes, the "freedom fighters," the "ideals of regular Ukrainians" and SLAVA TO UKRAINE.

Ariete?
- your turn.
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:09 PM
 
15,035 posts, read 13,625,077 times
Reputation: 6916
P.S. Other than Crimea, I am sensing that East Ukraine does have industrial/financial value that both West and Russia would want to have, but Western part? It can become the Polish province once again and no one would care.
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:10 PM
 
5,742 posts, read 2,316,821 times
Reputation: 5973
Quote:
I doubt you're going to get less corruption if you're putting the same oligarchs who benefited from past corruption in power in Government positions across Ukraine.
I spoke to a friend in Pskov this morning. People call this "The war in the shadows of the oligarchs".
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:12 PM
 
Location: Some Airport Transit Zone
2,339 posts, read 1,374,930 times
Reputation: 739
Some ukrainian News of the day :

Kiev :
Vice Defense Minister of Ukraine has been fired for refusing to give the "right sector" armed thugs the status of the legal regular paramilitary units. This order was signed by the Prime Minister Yatsenuk.
( WTF!)

Crimea :
The current Ukrainian leadership that came as a result of anti-constitutional coup and which does not have a national mandate, imposes illegitimate decisions on the eastern and south-eastern regions and Crimea - said citizens of the Donbass and Crimea.
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:21 PM
 
5,742 posts, read 2,316,821 times
Reputation: 5973
Quote:
But this is not about Ukraine and everything ending peacefully, this is about Russia versus the West. In geopolitics, the West needs Russia to not access the Black Sea, thus the Med, it is as simple as that. This is a huge stepping stone towards isolating Russia more, thus leveraging its natural resources for the West's use.

Having Ukraine split would not accomplish any of this, this is why there is firm anti-splitting by the West and Ukraine who is sponsored now by the West. The West will also take a firm stance ion Crimea, as this is a key point to Russia's access to the Black Sea.

The West does not care about Ukrainians' "freedoms"; there could be a Stalinist dictator there for all the West cares, all the West cares about is Ukraine siding with the West, but they need all of Ukraine for this, not some dirt poor western part without Crimea.
I am in total agreement with you. The destruction of the Russian Federation and CIS is the goal here at least for certain powers concerned, not all. I fear that Russia is going to have to strike back, invasion of the Ukraine is entirely possible and for Russia doable.

Most Ukrainians do not care for the US and their history with Europe has been rocky to say the least. There will be trouble if the country does not divide.

I also don't think Russia is bluffing, Putin has to do something or he will be perceived as a weak leader and Russians do not like weak leaders. He's the Tsar and the Tsar has to be strong and decisive. Russians are quite an excitable bunch.
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:24 PM
 
5,742 posts, read 2,316,821 times
Reputation: 5973
Quote:
Vice Defense Minister of Ukraine has been fired for refusing to give the "right sector" armed thugs the status of the legal regular paramilitary units. This order was signed by the Prime Minister Yatsenuk.
Hitler and his Brownshirts come to mind.
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Some Airport Transit Zone
2,339 posts, read 1,374,930 times
Reputation: 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
No-no Boxus wait, we need to hear one more time about the Maidan heroes, the "freedom fighters," the "ideals of regular Ukrainians" and SLAVA TO UKRAINE.
It's sad to see some zombie people here who are stubbornly don't wish to open their eyes...
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:26 PM
 
5,742 posts, read 2,316,821 times
Reputation: 5973
Never mind.
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Some Airport Transit Zone
2,339 posts, read 1,374,930 times
Reputation: 739
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
But this is not about Ukraine and everything ending peacefully, this is about Russia versus the West. In geopolitics, the West needs Russia to not access the Black Sea, thus the Med, it is as simple as that. This is a huge stepping stone towards isolating Russia more, thus leveraging its natural resources for the West's use.

Having Ukraine split would not accomplish any of this, this is why there is firm anti-splitting by the West and Ukraine who is sponsored now by the West. The West will also take a firm stance ion Crimea, as this is a key point to Russia's access to the Black Sea.

The West does not care about Ukrainians' "freedoms"; there could be a Stalinist dictator there for all the West cares, all the West cares about is Ukraine siding with the West, but they need all of Ukraine for this, not some dirt poor western part without Crimea.
The West will lose. It is obvious. But the saddest thing is - the ukrainians will lose as well.
They have nothing to gain from the "revolution".
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