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Old 08-04-2015, 08:08 AM
 
4,984 posts, read 5,063,741 times
Reputation: 6322

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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
May 16 2014, really?
Boo-hoo))))
Cry me a river about someone's nazi tatoo. It was the beginning of a civil war, no matter what "chocolate king" Poroshenko would like to call it.
And since it's a civil war, any idea why Human Rights organizations have no access to POWs from Donbass?
To the ones you know that "brave Ukrainian army" of thugs keeps god knows where?
Their POWs are accounted for, the Human Rights organizations are free to meet with them any time they want, so what's the deal?
An ancient symbol of Kievan Rus, an emblem of the country you betrayed is a nazi tatoo? Yuo smoke some serious Russian nazi crap, sister. Those are outdated links, chopping a hand off, Russian nazis and local collaborants did so much more since then.

You radically redefined the concept of a "civil war". If Russian nazi volunteers + regulars are more numerous than local collaborants, if all arms and supplies, if all decisions and key decision makers are Russian, that's not a civil war, that's an invasion + treason.
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Old 08-04-2015, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Donetsk
238 posts, read 152,587 times
Reputation: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Personally, I am curious if you have video of the Russian nazi scum removing commemorative plaque for Donbass born poet Vasyl Stus at Donetsk University. It is so Golden Horde, it is so Russian to wipe out memories and identities of the people before employing them as dumb, disposable tools of Empire.
Don't change the topic. Or you don't have what to say?
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Old 08-04-2015, 08:40 AM
 
4,984 posts, read 5,063,741 times
Reputation: 6322
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Yes, I am talking about your favorite character - comrade Putin.
Did it just down on you that this whole class of so-called Russian elite was created with the help of Western banking, comrade Putin including?
Now keep on ranting on and on as you usually do, because it seems that you like running in circles.
Me - not so much.
Besides - I am not even a man)))
Russian/Postsoviet elite was born by Soviet elite eager to get piles of money and tonnes of property, just like their counterparts in the West. Power alone didnt do a trick for the Soviet managerial/security elites. A complex process of looting, privatization, corporatization ensued and it pushed some people to the top, and some, I suppossed you too, didnt have what it takes to claim your rightfull share, or you emigrated right at the time your friends stayed to make a killing while robbing mother Russia, thus this all transpiring bitterness.

Post soviet elites reflect the qualities and the urges of the post soviet people way too well to be installed by the foreign agents. Foreign agents did try to introduce foreign rules of the game they understand, but they greatly underestimated paternalistic urges of post soviet people, the urges that seek a benevolent guiding force behind all the decisions in spite of the less than paternalistic environment. The local urges won, 12 out 15 post soviet countries settled into corrupt post soviet semi feudalism, the only natural outcome of rejecting combined experience of the Western democracies. Some post Soviet feudals feel too big for their fiefdoms.

The West must deal with whomever at the top, and whomever is at the top gets his feudal powers enhanced in the course of those dealing just look at what 15 years of oil for much cash did to the Russian fiefdom and its Fuhrer.
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Old 08-04-2015, 08:41 AM
 
4,984 posts, read 5,063,741 times
Reputation: 6322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selena822 View Post
Don't change the topic. Or you don't have what to say?
Do you have that video or not? Russian nazis destroying Ukrainian cultural symbols fits this topic perfectly.
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Old 08-04-2015, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Kharkiv, Ukraine
663 posts, read 698,962 times
Reputation: 686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selena822 View Post
What, again? Maybe let's check who are you?
Elena, I, unlike you, here was registered long before known events.
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Old 08-04-2015, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Donetsk
238 posts, read 152,587 times
Reputation: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wadym View Post
Elena, I, unlike you, here was registered long before known events.
It only means that you are registered longer than me. You saw my passport too, didn't you? Now explain me how an adult and sane person from Kharkov can welcome that what happened in Kiev? You're really going to try to convince me that an armed coup and inciting of ethnic hatred and threats of killing people is patriotism?

While that part of Ukraine jumped on the Maidan, we worked, paid taxes and listened to death threats because we disagree with them. We are Kharkov, Donetsk, Lugans, Dnepropetrovsk, Odessa. People in these cities hate this government for Odessa, Donetsk, Lugansk, Gorlovka, Slavyansk and you're trying to convince me that I have to believe your word?

I don't know how much people must disrespect themselves to quietly look at it all. Why only 2 of my friends from the north and the west of Ukraine turned away from me and the rest supports us and agree with my opinion? Why Poroshenko has a confectionery factory in Lipetsk, why the Ukrainian government begging discounts on gas from the aggressor country, why happens that what happened in Mukachevo, Rovno, Kharkov? Do you like that police can only stand and look at armed thugs? Or maybe you like raider attacks, the collapse of industry breakdown of contracts and the loss of Ukraine's reputation in the face of countries which provided them these contracts? Can you say that you are feeling safe and confident in your future in this country?

I have not heard from you about foreigners at cabinet and that Ukraine has gained so much debt that many generations of Ukrainians will have to pay for this. Why you don't tell that pension now is almost equal to the amount of utility payments and pensioners facing a hard choice- food and medicine or utilities, If they do survive to this, because you do not say that retirement age was changed too? Why don't you talk about it? If you do like it, you are welcome, enjoy your democracy in "safe" country. But we, drunks, drug addicts, prostitutes and freaks will build our own state where we will work without fear of another coup in 10 years. Do you know, where you can showe such democracy as you have in Ukraine?
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Old 08-04-2015, 07:49 PM
 
15,037 posts, read 13,627,926 times
Reputation: 6916
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
An ancient symbol of Kievan Rus, an emblem of the country you betrayed is a nazi tatoo? Yuo smoke some serious Russian nazi crap, sister. Those are outdated links, chopping a hand off, Russian nazis and local collaborants did so much more since then.
And so did the Nazi Ukrainians. They did "so much more" since then - the damage, the sheer stupidity))))
And what is "betrayal"? I didn't recite any pledge of allegiance to Ukraine, did I?

Quote:
You radically redefined the concept of a "civil war". If Russian nazi volunteers + regulars are more numerous than local collaborants, if all arms and supplies, if all decisions and key decision makers are Russian, that's not a civil war, that's an invasion + treason.
Sorry if I don't follow your delusions.
It's enough to watch the older videos on youtube to see how overwhelming was the protest against the change of the government in Kiev, and how puny was support for "United Ukraine" when it comes to Donbass. That the neighboring country got involved in the internal conflict doesn't change a thing. Foreign forces were involved in Russian civil war as well, but civil war is still a civil war.
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Old 08-04-2015, 08:54 PM
 
15,037 posts, read 13,627,926 times
Reputation: 6916
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Russian/Postsoviet elite was born by Soviet elite eager to get piles of money and tonnes of property, just like their counterparts in the West.
Yes they did. Except for "their counterparts in the West" were going through a lengthy process of trials and errors, of establishing the laws concerning private property, the kind that would serve their nations right, developing the whole groundwork - the infrastructure, the industries and the rest. But these ones? They wanted to get on top and become rich on the pure ground of scheming, looting and selling out their own nation. It doesn't matter what they pretended to be - "the saviors of Russia," the "destroyers of Communism" - the truth is, it was all about their personal enrichment and desire to become en par with their "western counterparts" better else - to become part of them. To belong to the "club."


Quote:
Power alone didnt do a trick for the Soviet managerial/security elites. A complex process of looting, privatization, corporatization ensued and it pushed some people to the top,
That's right, the process was encouraged and supported by "American economic advisers," you are aware of it, right?

Quote:
and some, I suppossed you too, didnt have what it takes to claim your rightfull share, or you emigrated right at the time your friends stayed to make a killing while robbing mother Russia, thus this all transpiring bitterness.
Oh leave my poor soul out of it - I wasn't even there at that time)))) Concentrate on events that you know of ( or rather don't know as I can see.)

Quote:
Post soviet elites reflect the qualities and the urges of the post soviet people way too well to be installed by the foreign agents.
You mean "foreign agents" like IMF? Of course IMF was dictating its preferences. What people they wanted "to deal with," specific people that they wanted to see in charge. Like, say Chubais. Or Gaidar. ( After all IMF was providing the loans and of course it was dictating conditions.)

Quote:
Foreign agents did try to introduce foreign rules of the game they understand, but they greatly underestimated paternalistic urges of post soviet people, the urges that seek a benevolent guiding force behind all the decisions in spite of the less than paternalistic environment. The local urges won,
That's all the nonsense that gullible Ukrainians, (particularly from younger generation) tend to believe in; when confronted with different facts, they scream "deceit" and "Putin's propaganda." Not that Putin's propaganda doesn't exist, but what took place in the nineties and long-lived memory of these years among Russians play right into his hands. If Ukrainians are that naive and clueless, that doesn't mean Russians are.

Quote:
that 12 out 15 post soviet countries settled into corrupt post soviet semi feudalism, the only natural outcome of rejecting combined experience of the Western democracies.
What "Western democracies"? You can regurgitate Kiev's propaganda all you want; the truth is, the West didn't intend any "democracies" for post-Soviet countries. Otherwise it wouldn't have placed all the power and money in the hands of a few, hoping that they'd faithfully serve western interests. "Western democracies" is something that West reserves exclusively for itself.

Quote:
Some post Soviet feudals feel too big for their fiefdoms.
And why wouldn't they? Hey, appetite comes with eating.

Quote:
The West must deal with whomever at the top,
"Must deal" is a very broad term. The West "must deal" with Iranian ayatollahs, it has to deal with the House of Saud, and it has to deal with the Communist party of China. And all that "dealing" is very, very different.
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Old 08-04-2015, 08:58 PM
 
15,037 posts, read 13,627,926 times
Reputation: 6916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wadym View Post
Ukraine can't split cause its a unitary country. Russia can as Russia is artificial federal formation which collapsed some times only for last hundred years.


Ukraine is no less "artificial formation" than Russia. All those bits and pieces glued together by Lenin and Stalin ( Krushev with Crimea are out of a picture by now,) so Kiev's nationalists can try to convince you in whatever they like, but yes, Ukraine is bound to fall apart at its seams.
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Old 08-04-2015, 09:05 PM
 
15,037 posts, read 13,627,926 times
Reputation: 6916
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Do you have that video or not? Russian nazis destroying Ukrainian cultural symbols fits this topic perfectly.
There is nothing particularly serious about those "Ukrainian cultural symbols." Truth to be told, all this hoopla about the "revival of Great Ukraine" is nothing but claptrap. The outskirts of former Orthodox powerful state, whose center of development moved eastward. That's why the Orthodox remnant (i.e. Ukraine) could never really stand on its own as a state; it either had to be subjected under Polish Catholicism or to ask for Russian protection. Noting in-between, really.
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