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Old 08-05-2015, 06:01 PM
 
15,051 posts, read 13,655,998 times
Reputation: 6926

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
In America, you could find a Church or an "economic adviser" to suit and please every your whim and desire. What was so."American" and "official" about those advisers?
The reason I am patiently answering you is precisely because your posts expose the whole "thinking process" behind the "Maidan generation" of Ukraine - utterly naive, with a lack of substantial knowledge on matters where the West ( and the US in particular) are involved. Like in this instance for example - an equation suggested by you between "any church" and economic advisers sent to deal with Russia on governmental level. Great reasoning, there is nothing to add here.


Quote:
You continue to insist that the people who managed to appropriate bulk of the wealth and power in the former USSR in just 20 years were just dummies (manipulated by USA), the dummies who didnt know what they want or how to get there. One cannot get more naive than that.
I never said that they were "dummies." They knew very well what they were doing and what they wanted. This suited Western interests just fine - these people ( Gaidar, Chubais, Khodorkovsky et al - those around Yeltsin) were ready to serve Western interests, fulfilling their own ambitions in the process. Now Yeltsin himself is the whole different story in my opinion. He was dumb and he was deceived.

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That's why you are bitter, you were not there to grab a piece of Mother Russia for whatever reason.
What do you mean "for whatever reason?" Since you are so aware of my "bitterness," you sure know the reasons why I "didn't grab a piece of mother Russia," don't deny it))))

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Sure, global masterminds are so powerfull and cunning, they can design & control everything, except 99.9% of the things they cant.
What, you can even calculate the percentage of the world affairs the "global masterminds" can or can not control? And you can even prove the validity of your calculations?

Quote:
You are persistent in viewing post Soviet space as a passive, submissive, naive virgins violated by the evil West.
No, that's your own projections, because I certainly never said that. "Post Soviet space" is all about imperialism 101 - search for sources of enrichment and markets. The "post-soviet elite" ( the one that's currently in charge) is looking out for its own financial interests. The American "economic advisers" miscalculated in the long run; they were hoping that this new Russian elite would be loyally serving the US interests first and utmost. Ukrainian "elite" was no different by the way - just with more limited capacities. (Now, of course, it would like to pledge allegiance to the US government.)

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Democracy is a dirty curse word in the modern Russia not because of the global masterminds made it so,
No, that's precisely because American "economic advisers" brought a disaster upon Russia, shaking hands with yesterday's Communists - the most cynical and kniving of them, turning "capitalists" overnight. They ( American advisers that is) facilitated the robbery of the general population, the crime of the century, which was presented as "democracy" to Russians. This is the reason why "democracy" is a curse word in modern Russian; there is no other reason for that. Since you obviously don't know much on a subject, you can stop the rest of your useless tirades right there.

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Democracy is an idea, it cannot be reserved.
As we've learned in the nineties, it can and it was.

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Representative democracy is not that much about "the rule of people" (logistically impossible for mass societies), it is more about the rule of law, applied uniformly more or less, and peaceful competition of the "elites" for power, peaceful transfer of power from one group to another.
Representative democracy is not that much about "the rule of people," but about the "rule of people with money." I.e. representative democracy of the West is closely tied to the existence of the middle class, with the laws protecting the rights of private property for this class.

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Those are the things Russians rejected,
Wrong again. Those are the things that Russians were deprived of, (very knowingly at that) by American economic advisers and their Russian counterparts in Kremlin.

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The dealings are very similar, China, Saudis even Iran are better off after those dealings, not speaking of their ruling elites.
You've got it all backward yet again. First of all it's the ruling elites of these countries that benefit from these dealings; when it comes to your average Chinese\Saudi\Iranian it's a different story.

Last edited by erasure; 08-05-2015 at 06:59 PM..
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Old 08-05-2015, 06:27 PM
 
15,051 posts, read 13,655,998 times
Reputation: 6926
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Those are projections of the Russian nazi mythology onto ancient past. Religion, in the sense of belonging to one Christian faction or another, no longer is used as a group identity marker outside of Russia.
That's not "mythology" - it's indeed a historic fact yet again. Besides, Russians are not particularly preoccupied with religious matters when it comes to the whole issue of Ukraine ( except for when Orthodox churches in Eastern Ukraine are purposefully destroyed and Orthodox clergy is targeted and murdered ( often - while attending their duties, along with their congregation.) So no "Russian nazi methology" here - just my own observation.

Quote:
One can be a good protestant and Ukrainian or a Pole.
One can be a good muslim for this matter as well, and Ukrainian or a Pole. You might scream in indignation that Islam has got nothing to do with Poland or Ukraine. But neither does Protestantism.


Quote:
There was no Russia 1000 years ago, up to 1500 +/- Moscovite princes were good Golden Horde vassals concentrating on getting more management rights from their Mongol masters. Moscovites were not particularly rebellious as compared to other Horde's vassals who eventually destroyed Horde. Only after 1500 Muscovy entered the scene as an independent player threatening other Kingdoms. Ukrainian identity was shaped by then, Russians try to wipe out that identity for 350 years by now. Ukrainian identity no longer depends on religious affiliations.
Yes, Moscow princes were Golden Horde vassals, biding their time, uniting the lands around them and gathering strength every day. Until they could overpower the very Golden Horde. They've learned their lesson well; divided they couldn't survive. This was the reason why they were submitted under the Golden Horde to begin with.
Of course "Ukrainian identity" was shaped by then ( by the 1600ies,) when they've asked for Moscow's protection. The truth is, that Orthodox identity couldn't go anywhere, because Kiev was a birthplace of it, the original one, so of course Orthodox Ukraine was forced to ask to protect it from Polish Catholics. Now "Ukrainian identity" was always tolerated in Russia, except for when that very "Ukrainian identity" was trying to stir some *crap* and play politics detrimental to Russian interests. Because, as I've mentioned earlier, "Moscow princes learned their lesson "united we stand, divided we fall."
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Old 08-06-2015, 12:53 AM
 
4,985 posts, read 5,070,371 times
Reputation: 6324
Quote:
This suited Western interests just fine - these people ( Gaidar, Chubais, Khodorkovsky et al - those around Yeltsin) were ready to serve Western interests, fulfilling their own ambitions in the process. Now Yeltsin himself is the whole different story in my opinion. He was dumb and he was deceived.
That is a typical Russian paranoia going back hundreds of years. Noble Russia vs Scheming West/World. Russian imperial mythology littered Russian minds with supremacist crap to the halting point , yet the realities of the Russian life was/is anything but superior. As a result - cognitive dissonanse around which entire Russian classic literature is spun, and it is still topic #1 that preoccupies the minds of the Russian nationalist writers, i.e. overwheming majority. Pathetic.

A reasonable person would admit something like this, "yup, I was starving for consumer goods and flashy packaging, I wanted good life I've seen in the Western movies, I've lost my mind. Soviet regime restricted access to information and travel, it imposed severe limitations on political and economic discourse, I knew nothing about the economics &social mechanics that enables abundance of goods and services, I had no critical thinking capacity to process all those promises and 500 days plans, and the educated classes Soviet Motherland invested so much in knew just as little as I did, until a few eager and enthusiastic younger researchers like Gaidar discovered freshman level "Economics 101". I was willing to try everything, to believe anything and everybody who would promise me good life. I wanted a spike in joblessness and inequality, because I was sick of the Soviet equal pay and excessive equality, I was OK with privatization by whomever at little or no cost because I was sick of the Soviet collective wasting/stealing resources and manufacturing junk I didnt want while paying me, a good worker, the same modest amount that drunks and less productive earned. I was confident that my hard work and talents will be appropriately rewarded, I knew nothing about global competitivness, I couldnt even even imagine that people wouldnt want to buy re-engineered Iskra computers, the crown development of the Soviet technology, if they had a choice of IBM PCs, I couldnt foresee the deliberate looting of my plant by managers and gansters aiming at good life (here and now) instead of investing in the future of the plant, when what's left of my plant was sold out, the new owners scrapped equipment and rented the storage space out, it was so not Economics 101, I was totally lost, I didnt know what to do next, what yo believe, what straw to grasp. I was ignorant and naive but I was so enthusiastic for new life, and yet good life failed to materialize while old life was disappearing, I thought it is because idealistic people missed something in Economics 101, or worse Americans brainwashed/controlled them to keep Russia in slavery. I thought more rugged individuals would do a better job on a new life, I was wrong. I am so messed up, I cannot stop being nostalgic for good, old Soviet times, what I was thinking, I will never admit what I was thinking back then, I thought USA was a paradise back then. I am so sick of aimless individual survival, all I want is to be a part of something big and terrible, and our dear leader, Vladimir Putin, gives me what I want

Russians would believe any conspiracy story about the scheming enemies not to face their severe limitations.

Last edited by RememberMee; 08-06-2015 at 01:04 AM..
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Old 08-06-2015, 01:37 AM
 
5,823 posts, read 10,164,646 times
Reputation: 4536
@ Remembermee : I don't understand why you are trolling this thread. I believe by now everyone has gotten your point, that the Russians are very bad people, nazis even, that need to be contained and if need be slaughtered , out of several historical reasons. Fine, it's your opinion, more power to you!
Now as somebody who has absolutely no dog in this fight (I'm French and I've never ventured east of ... Berlin in my life), I believe you should stop your rants, they are totally counter-productive. Your opinion is so extreme that you will convince no one here -save the rare people who share the same extreme views as you-.
So give us a break, go out and breathe fresh air, and try rather to enjoy this glorious summer!
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Old 08-06-2015, 01:49 AM
 
Location: Warren, OH
2,748 posts, read 3,344,843 times
Reputation: 6479
I have family in the Kyiv region. Some are applying first for travel visas. Just to get out. Then my cousin will apply for a student visa. It is good to the American Embassy that she has visited other countries, including the US - and returned. She also owns a condo and is engaged.

That's a double edged sword. Dima has never been out of UA. Recently they hired a consultant who told them to take a trip to Poland and to return. They did this.
However, other that Russia, Dima has not been out of UA. The US likes engaged couples.

Katya is encouraging me to continue to adopt from Ukraine. We do not trust Putin. What if he really does march into Ukraine? I will lose my family and friends. And the adoption.

Am I being too paranoid?
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Old 08-06-2015, 02:03 AM
 
5,823 posts, read 10,164,646 times
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Am I being too paranoid? You are definitely so. 'Putin" (are you so afraid of a lone man?) will definitely "not walk into Ukraine". Sleep tight, don't let bedbugs bite, get on quietly with your life, and don't listen to hysterical doomsayers la Remembermee.
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Old 08-06-2015, 06:41 AM
 
4,985 posts, read 5,070,371 times
Reputation: 6324
Quote:
Originally Posted by pigeonhole View Post
@ Remembermee : I don't understand why you are trolling this thread. I believe by now everyone has gotten your point, that the Russians are very bad people, nazis even, that need to be contained and if need be slaughtered , out of several historical reasons. Fine, it's your opinion, more power to you!
Now as somebody who has absolutely no dog in this fight (I'm French and I've never ventured east of ... Berlin in my life), I believe you should stop your rants, they are totally counter-productive. Your opinion is so extreme that you will convince no one here -save the rare people who share the same extreme views as you-.
So give us a break, go out and breathe fresh air, and try rather to enjoy this glorious summer!
Are you a French nazi sidekick of the Russian nazis, just like Marie Le Pen, and a good chunk of French who think that Russians have natural rights to dominate their surrounding?

If somebody is trolling this thread, it is you. You have no knowledge, no direct direct experience, you have just this urge to cheer for the Russian Reich. I fully rationalize my points, I dont avoid arguments. Sorry if the Russian nazi comrades prefer supremacist and conspirological crap Empire fed them for hundreds of years.
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Old 08-06-2015, 07:01 AM
 
4,985 posts, read 5,070,371 times
Reputation: 6324
Quote:
Originally Posted by pigeonhole View Post
Am I being too paranoid? You are definitely so. 'Putin" (are you so afraid of a lone man?) will definitely "not walk into Ukraine". Sleep tight, don't let bedbugs bite, get on quietly with your life, and don't listen to hysterical doomsayers la Remembermee.
Putin resonated with the dark Russian side, and you dont really know at what level of bestiality Russians would settle, and neither do Russians know. Putin is not an issue, Hitler was not an issue, the Fuhrer and the folk feeding on each other is the issue.

It is a clear that you think that Russians have legitimate targets to achieve, like wiping out/annexing a good chunk of Ukraine, and then everything would settle in peace and harmony. German Nazis didnt settle after capturing Paris, Germany didnt change a bit after French capitulated, why would you think Russian nazis will be different? Russian nazis dont really hide their views and goals.
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Old 08-06-2015, 07:42 AM
 
5,823 posts, read 10,164,646 times
Reputation: 4536
Default I see you are also a German-hater

Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Putin resonated with the dark Russian side, and you dont really know at what level of bestiality Russians would settle, and neither do Russians know. Putin is not an issue, Hitler was not an issue, the Fuhrer and the folk feeding on each other is the issue.

It is a clear that you think that Russians have legitimate targets to achieve, like wiping out/annexing a good chunk of Ukraine, and then everything would settle in peace and harmony. German Nazis didnt settle after capturing Paris, Germany didnt change a bit after French capitulated, why would you think Russian nazis will be different? Russian nazis dont really hide their views and goals.
It seems you have unresolved issues with many european nations ; take my advice, a visit to the shrink would do you good.
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Old 08-06-2015, 07:49 AM
 
4,985 posts, read 5,070,371 times
Reputation: 6324
Quote:
Originally Posted by pigeonhole View Post
It seems you have unresolved issues with many european nations ; take my advice, a visit to the shrink would do you good.
And a French nazi sidekick of the Russian nazis accused me of trolling? I have ferreted you out alright.
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