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Old 08-06-2015, 09:15 PM
 
15,036 posts, read 13,625,077 times
Reputation: 6916

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
That is a typical Russian paranoia going back hundreds of years. Noble Russia vs Scheming West/World. Russian imperial mythology littered Russian minds with supremacist crap to the halting point , yet the realities of the Russian life was/is anything but superior. As a result - cognitive dissonanse around which entire Russian classic literature is spun, and it is still topic #1 that preoccupies the minds of the Russian nationalist writers, i.e. overwheming majority. Pathetic.
Russians have two major invasions in recent history plus the nineties, plus the foreign intervention in their civil war to back up their suspicions. ( That is not even including more distant invasions, claim of Russian throne by foreigners including.) Do you have anything to back up your blubbering?

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A reasonable person would admit something like this, "yup, I was starving for consumer goods and flashy packaging, I wanted good life I've seen in the Western movies, I've lost my mind. Soviet regime restricted access to information and travel, it imposed severe limitations on political and economic discourse, I knew nothing about the economics &social mechanics that enables abundance of goods and services, I had no critical thinking capacity to process all those promises and 500 days plans, and the educated classes Soviet Motherland invested so much in knew just as little as I did, until a few eager and enthusiastic younger researchers like Gaidar discovered freshman level "Economics 101". I was willing to try everything, to believe anything and everybody who would promise me good life. I wanted a spike in joblessness and inequality, because I was sick of the Soviet equal pay and excessive equality, I was OK with privatization by whomever at little or no cost because I was sick of the Soviet collective wasting/stealing resources and manufacturing junk I didnt want while paying me, a good worker, the same modest amount that drunks and less productive earned. I was confident that my hard work and talents will be appropriately rewarded, I knew nothing about global competitivness, I couldnt even even imagine that people wouldnt want to buy re-engineered Iskra computers, the crown development of the Soviet technology, if they had a choice of IBM PCs, I couldnt foresee the deliberate looting of my plant by managers and gansters aiming at good life (here and now) instead of investing in the future of the plant, when what's left of my plant was sold out, the new owners scrapped equipment and rented the storage space out, it was so not Economics 101, I was totally lost, I didnt know what to do next, what yo believe, what straw to grasp. I was ignorant and naive but I was so enthusiastic for new life, and yet good life failed to materialize while old life was disappearing, I thought it is because idealistic people missed something in Economics 101, or worse Americans brainwashed/controlled them to keep Russia in slavery. I thought more rugged individuals would do a better job on a new life, I was wrong. I am so messed up, I cannot stop being nostalgic for good, old Soviet times, what I was thinking, I will never admit what I was thinking back then, I thought USA was a paradise back then. I am so sick of aimless individual survival, all I want is to be a part of something big and terrible, and our dear leader, Vladimir Putin, gives me what I want
First of all, a reasonable person would have made a little research before yaking god knows what on public forums, trying to pass hear-say for indisputable facts. But then, again, there is a reasonable person and then there is you. I wouldn't waste my time of course trying to straighten you out, but since my posts here might play an educational role for some other younger Ukrainians who follow this thread ( and may be even Russians of younger generation, ) so here it goes;
In spite of all your insinuations, you need to keep in mind one fact, that Russians always ( and I repeat it - ALWAYS) have competent people among them, under any difficult ( and sometimes downright impossible) circumstances. Whether the expertise of these people is followed or not is a different question, but it's utterly stupid and naive to think that such people are not there. No matter what effort has been put lately to lure such people out of the country, to organize essential "brain drain" from Russia, it still didn't achieve the goal. So, keeping that in mind, let's go back to the nineties, back to that 500 days plan that you've mentioned. Grigory Yavlinsky, one of the economists who worked on this plan was quite savvy in market economy, and in spite of your rather limited understanding of the situation, he had very bright ideas on a subject of transitional economy. The economic situation by the end of the 80ies\ beginning of the 90ies in Russia was such, that people had plenty of savings, but not enough of goods. So what Yavlinsky proposed, was to organize a sale of small enterprises to the public; dry-cleaners, garages, trucks, bakeries - you name it. This would have given an opportunity to all the willing citizens to become a business owner, solving the dilemma of excessive amounts of cash and shortage of goods, and jump-starting new market economy. Not only that, but such measure would have brought resolution to the vital difference between Russia and "Western democracies" - the absence of middle class. With establishment of such class, Russian long suppressed civil society would have finally received the voice and opportunities; the civil control over its government first of all. When Yavlinsky discussed his plans in Washington, Washington dutifully declined them. What has been done instead, (and rather fast,) the devaluation of ruble that evaporated overnight all the savings of average people, the ones they were setting aside through their entire lives. Once this has been accomplished, the prized possessions of the nation - the natural resources, the oil and gas industries, the metallurgy - (with other words anything that had real value in the West) has been put in the hands of the few, with whom the West shook hands. While general Russian population has been brought to the point of starvation by such "reforms," American ( and other Western investors) got free access to long-coveted Russian natural resources, becoming shareholders in newly-organized "private" Russian companies.
So yes, Russians still have good memory of those events - that's one of the reasons why they consider Ukrainians participating in Maidan as idiots, sold on American promises.
In fact now, when I think about it, this whole ordeal with those "American investors" in Yukos ( the oil company) is far from over; if anything, it has been revived again in American and European courts. Yet another card pulled by the West with the latest attempt to ruin Russia financially, since the Ukrainian affair didn't work out ( yet again) the way it has been planned. What will come out of it remains to be seen.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/61baf1ec-3...#axzz3i5xfOHdP

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Russians would believe any conspiracy story about the scheming enemies not to face their severe limitations.
Russians ( as Americans) are all different people and they believe in different things. Some of them indeed believe in any kind of conspiracies "refusing to face their limitations," but some can see things for what they are. That ability you know, that you are clearly deprived of.
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Old 08-06-2015, 09:21 PM
 
15,036 posts, read 13,625,077 times
Reputation: 6916
Quote:
Originally Posted by pigeonhole View Post
Russia doesnt support "rebels". It organizes, leads, arms Russian nazis and local collaborants, it provides direct military assistance, Russia tells them what to do and when, regular Russian forces subdued irregular nazi outfits refusing subordination, a few especially rebellious "rebel" leaders were exterminated. This is much unlike 1918 civil war.

I do hope that is true, altough I think it would have been more simple for the RF to annex the Donbass last year .
I suspect this crucial mistake will cost Putin his throne.

Quote:
And unfortunately the fact that they eliminated colonel Strelkow is a big mistake I believe.
Truth to be told, Kremlin started regarding Strelkov as a potentially threatening ( to them) political figure.
One of Kremlin's "talking heads" even openly suggested that Strelkov ( dead or alive) could serve as the "uniting force" for "Russian Maidan."
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Old 08-07-2015, 07:45 AM
 
4,984 posts, read 5,062,982 times
Reputation: 6322
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Russians have two major invasions in recent history plus the nineties, plus the foreign intervention in their civil war to back up their suspicions.
Dont play a victim. Russian imperialism had a lot to do with WWI and WWII. Actually, neither would have happened as we know them without eager for new lands and glory Russian idiotic variety of imperialism. As always, Russian pretenses and self image didnt match Russian abilities in politics or on the battlefield, this necesseciates complex victimhood and paranoia to mantain supremacist delusions. Same true about Napoleonic invasion of 1812, I am pretty sure our French nazi friend could expand your horizons quite a bit on that war. The whites thought very differently about limited and grossly inadequate "foreign intervention" than you do. If Russia doesnt want invasions and wars it needs to look long and hard in its ugly reflection in the mirror.

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Do you have anything to back up your blubbering?
It was a generalized parody on how a generic 50 y.o. Russian could perceive his life if he was honest to himself. You are very nordic, comrade Erasure? Or you deny very well documented and widespread sentiments that Soviet/Russian people went through?

Quote:
Grigory Yavlinsky, one of the economists who worked on this plan was quite savvy in market economy, and in spite of your rather limited understanding of the situation, he had very bright ideas on a subject of transitional economy.
Sure, working as a soviet economic planner and reading restricted copies of Economics 101would make anyone "savvy" in market economy, it is just like practicing abstinense and reading Sex ed books.

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The economic situation by the end of the 80ies\ beginning of the 90ies in Russia was such, that people had plenty of savings, but not enough of goods.
Isnt that a formula for inflation that dont require American evil to operate?

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So what Yavlinsky proposed, was to organize a sale of small enterprises to the public; dry-cleaners, garages, trucks, bakeries - you name it.
Small garages, bakeries... Dear, have you been to USSR, or your daddy, a communist party boss, protected you from exposure to the generic Soviet life too well? How many industrial bakeries could you buy with your savings? There were very few individuals, mostly criminals and soviet black marketeers, who had that kind of savings. Most people had 2,000-10,000 rubbles saved. At that time, just before USSR collapsed, you could buy $1 for 30 rubles, so big savings it's $70-$300. Some sort of cooperative arrangements were a must for average people to own anything, i.e. something Russian/soviet people were incapable of, that is why Russians love a good whip, a benevolent ruler and fuhrers, they cant cooperate, the urge to dominate others is too strong. Why Soviet people with little savings should have forfeited their ownership rights? You make it way simpler than it was.

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This would have given an opportunity to all the willing citizens to become a business owner, solving the dilemma of excessive amounts of cash and shortage of goods, and jump-starting new market economy.
Nonsense, see above. It takes starting capital to run a business, personal savings are rarely sufficient. Theoretically, voucher privatization was more fair arrangement than Yavlinsky' plan. But even fair plans must interact with Russian reality. There were no people in USSR who could predict, not speaking of managing, how Economics 101 would interact with Russian/Soviet legacies, institutions and people.

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"Western democracies" - the absence of middle class. With establishment of such class, Russian long suppressed civil society would have finally received the voice and opportunities; the civil control over its government first of all.
So naive. Small business owners frequently are worse off financially than hired labor, and just as "secure", most of them are not anywhere near "middle class" status as you view it, i.e. financially independent people with above average impact on the decision making.

Quote:
When Yavlinsky discussed his plans in Washington, Washington dutifully declined them. What has been done instead, (and rather fast,) the devaluation of ruble that evaporated overnight all the savings of average people, the ones they were setting aside through their entire lives.
That is some serious conspiracy. Who were the masterminds who didnt let Yavlinsky' plan fly? You make it simpler than it was to fit a grand conspiracy. Ruble was already devalued as soviet black market exchange rate shows. Hated devaluation was just stating the obvious. Nobody knew how to provide for the basic necessities right here and right know.

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Once this has been accomplished, the prized possessions of the nation - the natural resources, the oil and gas industries, the metallurgy - (with other words anything that had real value in the West) has been put in the hands of the few, with whom the West shook hands.
First, Russian inability to deal fairly with each other resulted into voucher privatization disaster, nothing else.

Second, check who owns extractive, and frequently delapidated, industries in the USA. The American prized possessions are owned by foreigners from less than developed countries like India, China, even Russia. The crown jewel of the American steel industry, or what's left of it, former Bethlehem Steel works in Baltimore, it's employed 50,000 people at some point, is owned by Russians and it employed less than 2000 a few years ago.

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While general Russian population has been brought to the point of starvation by such "reforms," American ( and other Western investors) got free access to long-coveted Russian natural resources, becoming shareholders in newly-organized "private" Russian companies.
So typical, so ungreatful Russian. The West didnt let them starve when they were killing each other in the turf wars over control and accumulation and here is Russian "thank you". Being a shareholder is not a free meal ticket, it's an investment obligation. Owning a delapidated Soviet enterprise is not a jack pot. Those people took great risk investing into Russia.

Quote:
So yes, Russians still have good memory of those events - that's one of the reasons why they consider Ukrainians participating in Maidan as idiots, sold on American promises.
Russians have no memories just delusions to patch their old myths and manias. That's the problem. What America has promised to Maidan? Yanukovich thugs made small/medium business almost impossible. EU associated membership had mostly symbolical meaning. Yanukovich renegging on the deal, police beating made it clear to the crtical mass of people: the thuggish Donetsk feudals and corrupt feudal regime, treating people like peasants, would not go away.

Russia has no right to kill and annex in the name of its parania and gross dishonesty, hopefully shrinking number of the hated Western shareholders would let the Russian skunk fly.

Last edited by RememberMee; 08-07-2015 at 08:50 AM..
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Old 08-07-2015, 09:27 AM
 
15,036 posts, read 13,625,077 times
Reputation: 6916
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Dont play a victim. Russian imperialism had a lot to do with WWI and WWII. Actually, neither would have happened as we know them without eager for new lands and glory Russian idiotic variety of imperialism. As always, Russian pretenses and self image didnt match Russian abilities in politics or on the battlefield, this necesseciates complex victimhood and paranoia to mantain supremacist delusions. Same true about Napoleonic invasion of 1812, I am pretty sure our French nazi friend could expand your horizons quite a bit on that war. The whites thought very differently about limited and grossly inadequate "foreign intervention" than you do. If Russia doesnt want invasions and wars it needs to look long and hard in its ugly reflection in the mirror.....
and the rest; here hon, I have something specially for you.
I know you will like it, since it's the "other side" of your very Russian Nazi soul
(In fact it's your sidekick )


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_nG5DikAY4
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Old 08-09-2015, 09:40 AM
 
15,036 posts, read 13,625,077 times
Reputation: 6916
Four OSCE cars were burned last night in Donetsk.
A couple of days ago people staged an action "rivers of blood" in front of OSCE mission.
Death of civilians is on the rise in Donbass yet again.

*ль Мюрид - Лайк
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Old 08-09-2015, 10:15 AM
 
51 posts, read 32,760 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by pigeonhole View Post
@ Remembermee : I don't understand why you are trolling this thread. I believe by now everyone has gotten your point, that the Russians are very bad people, nazis even, that need to be contained and if need be slaughtered , out of several historical reasons. Fine, it's your opinion, more power to you!
Now as somebody who has absolutely no dog in this fight (I'm French and I've never ventured east of ... Berlin in my life), I believe you should stop your rants, they are totally counter-productive. Your opinion is so extreme that you will convince no one here -save the rare people who share the same extreme views as you-.
So give us a break, go out and breathe fresh air, and try rather to enjoy this glorious summer!



I found this in a letter from Marx, the author of Das Kapital not the humorist.

Grattez le Russe et vous trouverez le Tartare . Quand il s'agit de la Prusse, il n'est mme pas ncessaire de gratter pour trouver... le Russe.


Scratch a Russian and you will find a Tatar. When dealing with Prussia, it's not necessary to scratch to find a Russian..
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Old 08-09-2015, 11:35 AM
 
15,036 posts, read 13,625,077 times
Reputation: 6916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlo Marlo View Post
I found this in a letter from Marx, the author of Das Kapital not the humorist.

Grattez le Russe et vous trouverez le Tartare . Quand il s'agit de la Prusse, il n'est mme pas ncessaire de gratter pour trouver... le Russe.


Scratch a Russian and you will find a Tatar. When dealing with Prussia, it's not necessary to scratch to find a Russian..
From what I know Karl Marx didn't like Russia too much. He probably had a premonition that Russians would mess up his precious theories somehow.

Which precisely what happened down the line.
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Old 08-12-2015, 08:53 AM
 
4,456 posts, read 3,703,881 times
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Anybody like to comment on the 'Russian-made' SAM finds made by the Dutch clue-hunters checking out the downing of Flight 17? Will be interesting to where that will lead.
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Old 08-13-2015, 04:10 AM
 
Location: Germany
261 posts, read 201,051 times
Reputation: 64
Investigators currently probing the crash of flight MH17
have found remains of a possible Russian missile among
the wreckage around the crash site

Westerbeke :
> investigations are currently underway to analyze seven considerable
> fragments of some size, probably from a BUK missile system."
> As of the moment, it is not yet fully clear if the missile fragments
> found among the wreckage were indeed directly related to the attack
> that caused the plane to crash.
> It's too early to say that the fragments we found were, for instance,
> from the BUK rocket that possibly shot down MH17," he said.

final report in the first half of October 2015

[I think there was big motivation for several groups to subsequently deposit
such fragments. E.g. microscoping artificial fragments, then releasing them
from a balloon or such at night, so to trick the investigators, while being able
to later prove the trick, thus discrediting their whole investigation.]

----------------------------------------
and, btw., I think this thread still mostly suffers from historical arguments,
while the situation fundamentally changed (nukes, UNO, internet, airplanes,
pipelines, missiles, ...)
and what we might have learned from history no longer applies.

Last edited by gsgsgs; 08-13-2015 at 04:52 AM..
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Old 08-13-2015, 05:52 AM
 
Location: Germany
261 posts, read 201,051 times
Reputation: 64
I found a picture now :
http://jurist.org/paperchase/2015/08/suspected-missile-parts-recovered-at-the-mh17-crash-site-in-ukraine.php

Surprisingly big fragment. Why didn't they find it earlier ?
--------edit---------
well, this or similar pics are not seen elsewhere, so I assume jurist.org tricked it's readers
into believing this was one of the 7 found BUK-fragments. It's also too big for a BUK
which seems to have a diameter of ~30 cm

Westerbeke :
> probably are parts of a missile system and probably a Buk missile system.

from the picture it should be possible for locals to get the exact coordinates,
even if the Dutch want to keep them secret ?!

Elsewhere I now read that the final report is expected for the end of October, 2015.
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